OFFICIAL Yankees vs. Red Sox trash talking thread

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Oh, you wanna go eh BlakChamber? :) I sense some Blue Jays-Tigers trash talking like it's the 1980s all over again.

[AS251BR]

:D

Hey Yanks, see ya in October.....maybe. ;)

[Tanner2126]

What a day its turning out to be. Captn Clutch Derek Jeter once agian ends the game not striking out this time but a feeble ground out. THE YANKEES LOSE THE YANKEES LOSE.

Time to pull away. Thank you A's a sweep in the bronx. SWEET! Are the Jays in 2nd place now?

Think your gonna stay there the whole season this time??? Does this start remind of you anything???

His first start as a Yankee since April 26 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_26), 1989 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989), came on July 17 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_17), 2005, against the division-leading Boston Red Sox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Red_Sox). Leiter won the game, pitching 6 1/3 innings, allowing one run and three hits, and striking out eight. :D

[Vinnie4]

Vincent dear, that was a World Series after 86 years. I think that merits more than a game. Surprise you didnt start out saying. Its funny when....I like when... You are starting to learm my friend. Good on ya mate. You have potential.


As do you my friend. You almost made it through an entire post without a spelling miscue.
The Sox won today, 1 out of 3 against the mighty Rangers(provided 12-6 in the 9th holds up) and you sing the praises of Ortiz like he cured cancer with 1 swing of his bat. 1 out of 3 isn't much better than 0 out of 3. Especially considering the Yankees took 2 of 3 from Boston earlier in the week. As I write this, Texas adds another run.

[Vinnie4]

What a day its turning out to be. Captn Clutch Derek Jeter once agian ends the game not striking out this time but a feeble ground out. THE YANKEES LOSE THE YANKEES LOSE.


And Captain Varitek goes 1/4 with 2 K's and left 2 men on base, and doesn't even play in game 2. Ortiz's bat carries this offense, does anyone else think that big C on Varitek's chest should be worn by Ortiz?

[Vinnie4]

Let's compare captains, shall we robert?

Varitek.259 AVG 6HR 29 RBI 27 Runs 1SB RISP .302 Bases Loaded .167 44 Hits

Jeter .332 AVG 5HR 41 RBI 43 Runs 10 SB RISP .373 Bases loaded .500 73 Hits

Granted, these stats do not include today's games, but you get the picture.

[robertbee]

A's SWEEP REMINDS ME OF SOMETHING VINCENT



Don't Forget to Get Your "2004 Back-to-Back" American League Championship Shirt (http://shop.mlb.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1887754) Before Daddy Pulls Them
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/pMLB2-1742989dt.jpg
Fox Interrupts This Posting for a WebMD Update
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/New%20York.bmp
)

[robertbee]

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/jd041021.gif

[robertbee]

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/Mastercard_3.jpg

[robertbee]

Glory days. Vincent


http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/DO_10.18.get.jpg
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/BRS_10.20bgjd.jpg

[Vinnie4]

Typical. Whenever someone posts something you can't respond to, you fall back on 2004. Good on you, mate.

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/06/11/1150055858_1383.jpg
With two outs in the ninth inning and a two-strike count, David Ortiz connected for a three-run home run and a 5-4 Boston win.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/06/11/1150056690_0199.jpg

Ortiz was greeted at home plate by his teammates after his home run gave the Red Sox the win.
Ladies and Gentleman: The pic on the bottom correctly displays roid rage.

[ORian3182]

Boston and The Yankees suck.

LETS GO METS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mets fan circa 1984

[robertbee]

Typical. Whenever someone posts something you can't respond to, you fall back on 2004. Good on you, mate.
Vince


What do you want me to respond too?

Should Papi have the C? NO. Tek is the Captian. He is a leader on the field, on the clubhouse and with the pitching staff. He is a student of the game. One of the smartest players in the league that has the utmost respect of his peers. Well earned by one of the best catchers in the league. Is that what your asking?

I like how you-they , its funny when, typicial ect ect.

[robertbee]

Clutch of the argument

It hasn’t exactly been the best of months for Alex Rodriguez

The reigning Player of the Month for May has just four hits in June, and has watched his batting average fall 20 points in the last 11 days. He has yet to have a June homer or run batted in for New York, which was at home over the weekend.
And as if that didn’t twist the knife enough, David Ortiz was hitting yet another game-winning home run 200 miles to the north.

Since acquiring Rodriguez in February of 2004, the Yankees have a tremendous choke (2004) and an unceremonious early exit from the playoffs (2005) to show for their investment. Rodriguez has an MVP to show for himself, the one that belonged to Ortiz in the first place.
On the same day that Ortiz was mobbed at home plate, after swatting a ninth-inning three-run home run to beat the Rangers, 5-4, in Game 1 of an otherwise dour doubleheader, Rodriguez was treated to boos from the Yankee Stadium crowd. He went hitless on the day, and committed his 11th error of the season. He had 12 all of last year.
The New York Post’s Joel Sherman writes today that it’s time to face facts: A-Rod doesn’t have “it,” (http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/time_to_face_facts__a_rod_simply_doesnt_have_it_yankees_joel_sherman.htm)the indefinable mark of greatness that drives athletes. The numbers may not suggest that: He's hitting .319 with runners in scoring position, .333 in that situation with two out. He’s 3 for 6 with 11 runs batted in with the bases loaded.
But it doesn’t take a genius to realize that something is missing. A-Rod is hitting .421 against the awful Kansas City Royals, just .222 against Boston, .200 against Baltimore, .176 against Toronto, and .211 versus Tampa Bay, the AL East teams against which he will play almost half of his games this season.
After he was jeered for the third straight game, Rodriguez said he is used to the fan reaction by now (http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyside0612,0,4776373.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines). With all of the Yankees’ injuries, Rodriguez has failed to give his team a piggyback ride, has yet to carry them to victory while they wonder what a season without Gary Sheffield and Hideki Matsui might bring. Ortiz is so used to all these baseball heroics that now he’s taken to calling his home runs (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/06/12/highs_and_lows/).
It’s up in the air as to which fans seem to dislike A-Rod more, but the contention here is that maybe Red Sox fans ought to imagine what life would have been like with the one-time shortstop. Rodriguez on the Yankees is one of the best things to ever happen to the Red Sox. They ought to love the fact that he continually comes up short, failing to deliver unless the game isn’t on the line. I mean, the man should be cheered continually at Fenway. He should have a statue downtown. Sit him next to Red down at Faneuil.
The fact that this guy has the 2005 MVP, on the other hand, remains the joke it was the day he received it.

The common argument is that if Ortiz wasn’t able to corral enough votes to take home the MVP last season that he never will. I’m not sure that’s the case any longer. But of course, there are plenty of BBWAA members who won’t consider Ortiz for a moment for the mere fact that he doesn’t bring a Mizuno to the ballfield, which is, of course, ridiculous. If you can’t consider the DH a pseudo “position,” then there shouldn’t be a DH. Period.
But Ortiz is beginning to sway some of those voters. At least one member of the media in New York has already come out this season, after watching A-Rod every day, and admitted the wrong guy took home the hardware (http://www.nypost.com/sports/65433.htm). Ortiz doesn’t stop with his mind-boggling escapades. A-Rod has yet to start. He won an MVP in 2003 too, helping Texas to finish in last place. He’s hitting a healthy .305 for his career in the playoffs, but is coming off an October in which he hit just .133.
He’s just 30 years old, and by the time his career is over, he might have shattered the all-time home run record (whether it’s Barry Bonds’ or Hank Aaron’s). He’s one of the best players in the game, but oddly enough, the one that you wouldn’t want at bat with all the marbles on the line.
Ortiz? Of course. Of all the great hitters in the game today, there’s simply nobody else you would want up at the plate when everything matters the most. He’s not the best player in the game by any stretch, but he’s one of the most important, as he proves over and over and over again.
A-Rod might be the game’s best player. Just not when it counts the most.


Hey Vinny. Papi may not cure cancer but he sure can win ball games when it counts. ;)

[robertbee]

http://www.nypost.com/photos/yanks06122006091.jpg
ALEX RODRIGUEZ, 3B, YANKEES AL MVP whose timely hitting, or lack thereof, is alarming. But is a master at blowing bubble like he is at making errors ans walking back to the dugout.

[robertbee]

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/06/11/1150056236_5998-1.jpg
YANKEE KILLER: Boston's David Ortiz, who finished second to Alex Rodriguez in last year's AL MVP voting, points skyward after blasting three-run homer in Monday's win over the Yankees.



May 3, 2006 -- BOSTON - David Ortiz tormented more than the Yankees again on Monday night. He bedeviled Alex Rodriguez once more, as well.

When Ortiz took a Yankee reliever into the Red Sox bullpen for a three-run, eighth-inning homer, he delivered another reminder of what he does so often and, at least perception suggests, Rodriguez does too infrequently. Ortiz restated, on the first day of May 2006, the best argument why he - and not A-Rod - should have won the 2005 AL MVP.
He cannot run with Rodriguez and he doesn't even try to take the field. But when it comes to the big moment, Ortiz's successes now feel as if they are on endless loop. Rodriguez's late-game Yankee highlight reel is not as dense.
"The voters got it wrong," an AL manager recently told me unsolicited. "I would do almost anything to avoid facing Ortiz late in a close game. I don't feel anything close to the same fear with Rodriguez. What is more valuable than that?"
Ortiz burnished his rise-to-the-drama reputation with a home run on a Monday night when it was all but impossible to hit a home run. The wind was blowing straight in. There were no extra-base hits through 71/2 innings. Jason Giambi, Derek Jeter and Boston's Wily Mo Pena had all crushed balls that normally would have been homers at Fenway. Jeter actually said he could not hit a ball harder. Yet his ball was knocked back short of the warning track.
So by devastating a Mike Myers fastball with enough force to slice through the wind and turn a 4-3 Red Sox lead to a 7-3 certain win, Ortiz added to his mythic status, especially when it comes to damaging the Yankees. Ortiz has succeeded so frequently at the critical junctures of so many pivotal games, regular and postseason, that the shock is when he does not come through.

In comparison - and A-Rod is greatly diminished by this comparison - there is general surprise now when Rodriguez flourishes in these forums. But this is where perception and reality tussle. Both Ortiz and A-Rod entered Monday's game with a terrible one hit in 11 2006 at-bats in close and late situations (from the seventh inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck).
Yet when Ortiz homered the instant thought was that he always comes through in those spots. Meanwhile, each time Rodriguez fails in the clutch, any previous success is dismissed. Rodriguez argues that you cannot exceed 100 RBIs eight straight years, as he has, and do it in only non-clutch moments. He began 2006 as a career .307 hitter and he was a near identical .302 with runners in scoring position.
His numbers were good last year in the clutch, but not great and certainly not as good as Ortiz's. A-Rod hit .290 with runners in scoring position, .302 with men in scoring position and two out, and .293 in close and late situations with four homers. Ortiz was .352, .368 and .346 with 11 homers.
Both have struggled in the clutch this year, but the failure has stuck to just one. Rodriguez's biggest hit of 2006 was probably opening night when his grand slam off Barry Zito blew open the game. That was a second-inning homer in a 15-2 game.
There have been a lot of empty moments in big spots since and, because it is A-Rod, it is noticed. He knows that. Before last night's rainout, Rodriguez agreed the subject "is the pink elephant in the room." You know it is there, but you don't want to discuss it.
But, he insists, "I don't take the pink elephant to the plate with me. I love those situations. I want those challenges."
Maybe that is right. But it sure looks as if on many clutch occasions Rodriguez is all but carrying that pink elephant on his shoulders, wanting so badly to change perceptions that the weight only becomes greater. And especially when they are in the same stadium together, Rodriguez is carrying the weight of something more tangible than a pink elephant: David Ortiz.

[robertbee]

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/06/11/1150056898_2627.jpg

His support of the Jimmy Fund may one day help to cure cancer. Lets hope so.

[Vinnie4]

What do you want me to respond too?

Should Papi have the C? NO. Tek is the Captian. He is a leader on the field, on the clubhouse and with the pitching staff. He is a student of the game. One of the smartest players in the league that has the utmost respect of his peers. Well earned by one of the best catchers in the league. Is that what your asking?

I like how you-they , its funny when, typicial ect ect.
Then why did the Sox go out and get Mirabelli? A leader on the staff, one of the smartest players in the league, best catcher in the league, but can't even catch all his pitchers. Ortiz is the leader of that team.

You trash on the Yankee captain, yet Varitek hasn't produced much of anything. I'd take Jeter any day over Varitek.

[robertbee]

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/BDD_Big-Papi-Shrek_MW.jpg


In the Big Inning, Ortiz Called His Home Run
Bradford: Papi Builds Legend with Blast (http://www.ecnnews.com/cgi-bin/O5/etstory.pl?-sec-Sports+fn-fn-fn-fn-fn-fn-bradford12-20060612-fn)
" 'I told him if we got two guys on I was going to do it,' Ortiz confided after his home run into the Boston's bullpen handed the Sox a 5-4 win. 'I got it done.' " -- 6.12.06, Rob Bradford, Eagle-Tribune (http://www.ecnnews.com/cgi-bin/O5/etstory.pl?-sec-Sports+fn-fn-fn-fn-fn-fn-bradford12-20060612-fn)

[robertbee]

Then why did the Sox go out and get Mirabelli? A leader on the staff, one of the smartest players in the league, best catcher in the league, but can't even catch all his pitchers. Ortiz is the leader of that team.

You trash on the Yankee captain, yet Varitek hasn't produced much of anything. I'd take Jeter any day over Varitek.

Come on Vinnie yo know the answer to that. Are you that desperate? Nobody catches every game. Its never been done. Catchers need a rest from a long season. Its a tough postion to play. Wake being a knuckle ball pitcher and comfortable with Mirabelli. It made sense to bring him back. Trading Mirabelli was a great trade in bring Lorretta in. That was a steal. You dont get a player like Lorretta for a back up catcher.
Ortiz is one of the leaders of the team you are finally correct even if its half correct

[Vinnie4]

Hey spellingbee, here are a few more numbers for ya.

Ortiz .265 AVG 18 HR 56 RBI 40 Runs 0 SB .288 RISP .286 Bases Loaded 61 hits

Rodriguez .283 AVG 13 HR 45 RBI 50 Runs 6 SB .310 RISP .500 Bases Loaded 63 hits

And before you say anything, they both have almost the same amount of AB with both RISP and bases loaded. I'd hardly say Ortiz has been more productive than A-Rod has at the plate. And before you bring up defense, you can't compare the 2 because Ortiz doesn't even play defense.

[robertbee]

Vince I think you have been eatting to many Johnny Cakes.....please....If you would rather have Arodover Papi then so be it. Do a poll and 90% of the people will take Papi. Arod has a history of choking when it counts, has a history of being selfish and is just a bad teamamte. Ortiz is a great blub house guy and makes baseball fun. G-ayrod is to serious, and has ruined every team he has been on. The best bet for the Yankees is to trade him for some young pitching which they desprately need and eat half his contract. Otherwise the Yankees will never win this century. Arod is cancer and must be nipped before it become terminal. I will make sure to see if Big papi can maybe cure Arods cancer spreading ways with some hoodoo since Papi is from the Dominicain. I wish you well Vince2cents

[Noche]

I have to agree that Ortiz is better than arod. Ortiz is just clutch and comes up big when the team needs him.

[Vinnie4]

I'm not happy with A-Rod's play so far this season, but I put those numbers up to show robert that Ortiz hasn't been very clutch this season either.I know he will point to the 3 run homer to win the game Sunday, but I can remember a few weeks ago Ortiz sriking out late in the game with the chance to at least tie the game. So if he wants to bash A-Rod, his choice. Just remember Ortiz and A-Rod's numbers are pretty similar.

[Noche]

I follow the yankees and arod is very disappointing so far this season. Yet its still early in the season and he is still capable of putting up big numbers. He just needs to work harder on his defense. He just needs to relax. Ortiz and Arod are both great players but Ortiz has the edge because his effectiveness when the game is on the line.

[Todd13]

YANKEES SUCK! YANKEES SUCK! YANKEES SUCK!

I feel better now.

[Arodjr]

Mr. Ortiz, aka, Mr. Clutch, just became Santana's 1000th strikeout victim!! Haha, red sox suck!!!!

[Arodjr]

Oh, and Yankees win, thanks to 7 plus strong innings of shut out ball by Wang!!

[fenwayp]

Glad the Yankees could muster a whole 1 run off of the "Mighty" Paul Byrd...

[Yukoner]

Mr. Ortiz, aka, Mr. Clutch, just became Santana's 1000th strikeout victim!! Haha, red sox suck!!!!

Nice timing, on a night when your boy A-Rod went 0-4, 3 strikeouts and leaving four men on base.

[fenwayp]

Nice timing, on a night when your boy A-Rod went 0-4, 3 strikeouts and leaving four men on base.

That's a typical night for AFraud in a tight game where they really need that clutch hit to put the game away :D

[fenwayp]

Schilling and Santana have been lights out tonight...what a great pitching duel this has been...Santana is out now...Nathan is on...Johan is awesome !

[Noche]

Great game by Wang tonight. Hopefully this could be a start of another winning streak.

[Arodjr]

That's a typical night for AFraud in a tight game where they really need that clutch hit to put the game away :D

Seems they got the only clutch hit they needed from Cano!! :eek:

[Arodjr]

Nice timing, on a night when your boy A-Rod went 0-4, 3 strikeouts and leaving four men on base.

It's all good, Cano got the only hit they needed. 3 K's by Arod is ok too, at least he's not the answer to a trivia question now!! :D

[fenwayp]

I like Cano...he had a clutch hit tonight...maybe you should change your name to canojr :eek: :D :rolleyes:

[fenwayp]

It's all good, Cano got the only hit they needed. 3 K's by Arod is ok too, at least he's not the answer to a trivia question now!! :D

:rolleyes:

[Arodjr]

:rolleyes:


:D

[fenwayp]

LET ME BE THE FIRST TO SAY:

JULIAN TAVAREZ SUCKS !!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Arodjr]

:eek: :eek: :eek: Red Sux score in the top of the twelveth, only to BLOW it by allowing a Walk Off Grand Slam!! Great bullpen on the Sux!!!!!! :D :D :D

[rimpila3]

Jason Kubel is the Man!!:D

[Arodjr]

LET ME BE THE FIRST TO SAY:

JULIAN TAVAREZ SUCKS !!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:


You beat me to it!!!!! :D :p

[fenwayp]

Papelbon and Timlin were great tonight...I just cannot stand neither Tavarez nor Foulke. They continue to prove themselves incapable.

[Todd13]

LET ME BE THE FIRST TO SAY:

JULIAN TAVAREZ SUCKS !!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: BIG TIME.

[SeattleMariners51445]

Jesus...A-Rod really does suck

[robertbee]

I'm not happy with A-Rod's play so far this season, but I put those numbers up to show robert that Ortiz hasn't been very clutch this season either.I know he will point to the 3 run homer to win the game Sunday, but I can remember a few weeks ago Ortiz sriking out late in the game with the chance to at least tie the game. So if he wants to bash A-Rod, his choice. Just remember Ortiz and A-Rod's numbers are pretty similar
Vinnie4


First off let me point out I think you mean STRIKING OUT???? If so learn to spell BRUTHA! :D

So Vinne. Answer me this. Would you rather have Arod or Papi? And why?

Its no secret King Geroge wanted Papi but they had juice boy playing first. And now Papi is a Yankee Killer. Sox beat the Yankees to the punch on that one.

[Vinnie4]

That would depend on the needs of the team. I'd rather have A-Rod at shortstop, his natural position. Ortiz is a great hitter, but I'd rather have someone who can play both sides of the ball. I've never been a fan of the DH. Guess I like NL ball better.


Oh yeah, Manny amd Ortiz combined 0-10 with 6 K's.

[Arodjr]

Oh yeah, Manny amd Ortiz combined 0-10 with 6 K's.

Just don't forget, they are so clutch in late and extra innings games!! Like last night. :D

[Tanner2126]

I really wouldnt bash Ortiz much. I rather have him up then A-Rod in a "We need a hit to tie the game" situation.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Yeah Tanner, but who would you get if you're leading 10-0 and need a 3-run homerun to make it 13-0?

[robertbee]

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/BDD_SICover_061906_Ortiz.jpg
(Clay Patrick McBride / Sports Illustrated Photo)
Tom Verducci's column in the June 19, 2006 issue of Sports Illustrated
(republished with SI's permission)
Who’s Your Papi?
What drives David Ortiz, the supersized Red Sox slugger, is his resentment of the ball club that did him wrong…and the fighting spirit of his late mother, Angela Rosa
Every ballpark seems smaller, every room brighter, every worry lighter when you’re in the company of David Americo Ortiz, the friendly galoot of a designated hitter for the eternally grateful Boston Red Sox. In girth and mirth Ortiz evokes Babe Ruth, Santa Claus and your favorite stuffed animal from childhood. The only son of Enrique and Angela Rosa ­Ortiz—“I’m my mom’s baby boy, you know?” he says ­proudly—grew up loved in Santo Domingo, D.R., and seems intent on loving the world back.
Runyon or Twain might have invented a character like Ortiz, if it were possible for even such expansive imaginations to conjure a 230-pound teddy bear who speaks like a California surfer with a thick Spanish accent; a Dominican who married a Wisconsin girl and has wintered part time in the state; a hip-hop, bling-­covered fashion plate who underneath his cool threads wears black boxer shorts with who’s your daddy? ­printed in all directions in Day-Glo colors; and—most amazing of all—one of the game’s great sluggers, who, at 27, was released by the Minnesota Twins after no other major league club wanted him in a trade.
Ortiz, now 30, ranked fourth in the American League in home runs (18) and first in RBIs (56) at week’s end, a pace that would leave him with 48 homers and 149 RBIs for the season and a three-year run in which he had no fewer than 41 homers and 139 RBIs. Only two players in history maintained such high production for three consecutive seasons: Ken Griffey Jr. (1996 through ’98) and Ruth, who did so for six straight years (1926 through ’31). A .300 hitter last season, Ortiz was batting .265, blaming the drop partly on the extreme defensive shifts employed against him (right).
In Ortiz there is a little bit of something for everyone to like, which helps explain why he received more All-Star votes from major league fans than any other player last year; why his Boston Red Sox teammates, in one of the more respectful acts in clubhouse culture, ceded him total control of the stereo; and why a terminally ill eight-year-old boy, given days to live, asked to visit Fenway Park to meet him in April. Ortiz’s popularity, like his gap-toothed, omnipresent smile, crosses cultures and generations.
“He appeals to every demographic,” Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein says. “People love watching athletes who you can tell enjoy what they’re doing. And to have a guy who comes to work every day with a smile—that’s especially huge in our clubhouse, where we had problems in the past.”
Says Puerto Rican–born teammate Alex Cora, “People love to be around David. The unique thing about him is that he communicates just as easily with the American players as with the Latin players. Most of the Latin stars don’t have that quality. He brings the team together.”
Ortiz thrives on such interaction, preferring to spend as much time as possible around friends and family. Yes, he is out­going by nature, but the company also keeps him from the dark thoughts that plague him sometimes when he is alone. Behind the smile there is pain. “I start thinking about life after death,” Ortiz says. “I’ve got to quit thinking about it because it’s very deep. Very deep. Sometimes you start thinking about it, and you don’t feel like you want to be alive, so I don’t like to get all quiet.
“Everybody goes through some tough times in their life, no matter what you do. Man, I’ve had my tough times.”
Eight minutes. Ortiz remembers it as exactly eight minutes. It is all the time needed for an elite runner to cover two miles, for an orchestra to play the second movement of Brahms’s Symphony No. 1 or, as Ortiz found out, for your heart to break. On New Year’s Day 2002, it was eight minutes from that awful phone call from his sister’s ­boyfriend—Your mom has been in an ­accident—to the time Ortiz arrived at the roadside wreck near his home in Santo Domingo. A dump truck. His mom’s car. And Angela Rosa ... gone.
“I was there eight minutes after it happened, and she was dead already,” Ortiz says. “That’s why I don’t worry about baseball. I don’t feel like I put any pressure on myself when I’m playing baseball. Not after that.”
Ortiz was 26 years old at the time and still trying to establish himself as an ­every-day player with the Twins, who had plucked him from the Seattle Mariners’ farm system in 1996, in one of those ­pennant-race deadline deals in which the anxious Mariners wanted veteran third baseman Dave Hollins. At the end of the ’97 season Ortiz was promoted to the big leagues, and the first person he called was, of course, Angela Rosa. She and Enrique, whom everyone calls Leo, were always there for him. There was the day Leo, who sold auto parts, left work to watch his boy play Little League for the first time. David smacked a home run, and as he rounded third, Leo bolted from the stands and interrupted his son’s trot to home by throwing a big hug around him. Though David still visits Leo regularly in Santo Domingo, things will never be the same without Angela Rose.
“She was one of the best mothers ever,” Ortiz says. “She was pretty much my everything. It’s tough, man. I come from a poor family, but I had a good education and a good home. That counts for everything. My mom, she ­wasn’t like a baseball mother who knew everything about the game. She just wanted me to be happy with what I was doing.”
Both his parents, Ortiz says, stressed the importance of education, but it was Leo, a former semi-pro ballplayer, who advised David to give up his other love, basketball, to concentrate on baseball. It was baseball that brought Ortiz to Wisconsin in 1996, where, while playing Class A ball at age 20, he met his wife, Tiffany, and started a family that includes two daughters, Jessica, 9, and Alexandra, 5, and a son, D’Angelo, 1 1/2.
The year that began with his mother’s death, 2002, would also be Ortiz’s last with the Twins. He hit .272 with 20 home runs and 75 RBIs platooning at first base for a young team that reached the AL Championship Series. Minnesota, though, was not high on Ortiz, who seemed injury-prone (he missed chunks of time with wrist and knee injuries), was not a polished fielder and ­couldn’t catch up with good fastballs on his hands. Minnesota G.M. Terry Ryan figured that Ortiz’s development had stalled and decided to trade him. “He just ­wasn’t getting it done here, for whatever reason,” Ryan says. Then he admits, “I made a bad baseball decision.”
He wasn’t alone. Ryan tried to trade Ortiz for two months. “Not one team made an offer,” Ryan says. “Nothing.”
Finally, in December 2002, the Twins released Ortiz. Finding a job at that point of the ­off-season looked so difficult to him that he told his agents, Fernando Cuza and Diego Benz, to check for openings in Japan and Mexico. “[The Twins] did me that bad,” Ortiz says. “I never had a problem with anybody in that organization. Ever, bro. I was a good teammate. I respect everybody. I never had no argument with no coach, nobody. I never did anything wrong, but they did me wrong. No respect, bro. I was lucky I got a job with the Red Sox. There were other teams, but they were offering me way less money.”
The Red Sox gave him $1.25 million and figured he was one of five guys—­along with Jeremy Giambi, Shea Hillenbrand, Kevin Millar and Bill Mueller—who would combine to fill three spots (first, third and DH). Six weeks into the season Ortiz showed so little power (two homers) that his teammates were calling him Juan Pierre (the light-hitting leadoff man who’s now with the Chicago Cubs). Ortiz wanted out of Boston. “I called my agents,” he recalls, “and said, ‘If you guys are not here tomorrow, you guys are fired.’”
After the next day’s game Ortiz and his agents met with Epstein in the players’ parking lot outside Fenway Park. “I told Theo, ‘I want you to trade me or release me,’” Ortiz says. “‘I can’t be sitting here watching this circus anymore, guys I know I can do better than. Me just watching from the bench? I’m not that kind of guy. I don’t clap for something that ­doesn’t deserve it.’”
“Give me a couple of days,” Epstein recalls saying. “I promise you we’ve got something in the works to free up a spot for you.”
On May 29, 2003, Epstein traded Hillenbrand to the Arizona Diamondbacks for righthander Byung-Hyun Kim, a forgettable trade for Boston except for the oppor­tunity it gave Ortiz. Finally, he could smile.
Ortiz had felt stifled in Minnesota, an organization that so emphasizes situa­tional hitting that no Twin has hit 30 home runs in a season since 1987. The 6'4" Ortiz was the square peg who ­didn’t fit in the round hole. “They wanted me to stay inside the ball,” Ortiz says, referring to a style in which a lefthanded hitter tries to hit inside pitches to leftfield. “They were teaching that to everyone. That’s why nobody ever hits home runs there. But when you’re young in the big leagues and the coach tells you to do something and you don’t do it and you get negative results, then you’re f-----. They’re going to sit you down.”
The Twins, Ortiz says, so enthusiastically stressed small-ball tactics such as hitting behind runners that “if you moved the runner over from second base [with a groundout], you got high fives in the dugout like you just hit a home run.”
In his first at bat with the Red Sox, while batting cleanup in a spring training game, Ortiz happened to come up with a runner on second base and no outs. “I came in with that little pull, cheap-shot s---,” said Ortiz, explaining his grounder to second base on an outside sinker. “I still had the Minnesota Twins in my system.”
This time there were no high fives waiting for him in the dugout, just manager Grady Little with a word of advice. “Hey,” Little said. “Next time? Bring him in.”
Ortiz smiles at the memory. “I was like, O.K.!” he says. “I had a little more freedom than what I was used to.”
Says Epstein, “We ­didn’t know what we were getting. Nobody knew. We just let him be exactly what he is.”
Ortiz, with a mechanical tune-up from hitting coach Ron ­Jackson, and freed of the wear and tear of playing in the field, ­started turning on inside pitches and closing that hole in his swing on inside fastballs. From June 1, 2003, through June 1, 2006, he slammed 132 home runs, second only to Albert Pujols’s 140 in the majors. He finished fifth, fourth and second in AL MVP balloting in the past three seasons while conjuring up so much late-­inning ­magic—he has 13 walk-off hits with the Red Sox, including three in Boston’s 2004 postseason run to a world ­championship—that last year the team presented him with a plaque declaring him THE GREATEST CLUTCH HITTER IN THE HISTORY OF THE BOSTON RED SOX. Ortiz lived up to that billing on Sunday, hitting a three-run walkoff homer at Fenway to beat the Texas Rangers 5–4.
“He loves coming up in the big spot,” says Epstein, whom Ortiz has persuaded to junk the sabermetrics principle that clutch hitting is not a skill. “He makes you rethink the objective analysis. The way he rises to the occasion and the quality of his at bats, the numbers don’t reflect that human element.”
Says Ortiz, “It’s mostly confidence. If you go up there thinking you might not get it done, you’re out already. I know I’m going to hit you. And I have confidence all around me here. In Minnesota, if we faced a good pitcher, guys would say, ‘Oh, well, I’ll get my hits tomorrow.’ Here? We don’t care who’s pitching.”
Ortiz is an icon in Boston already. “A ­larger-than-life figure,” says second baseman Mark Loretta of the man called Big Papi. (Ortiz, forgetful of names, has a habit of calling people Papi, a Spanish colloquialism for daddy or pop. His frequent use of the word was turned around on him long enough ago that he can’t remember when it began.)
Ortiz’s transformation from released player to, as Toronto Blue Jays G.M. J.P. Ricci­ardi says, “a Hall of Famer with five more years like this” may be unprecedented. The Brooklyn Dodgers lost Roberto Clemente to the Pittsburgh Pirates in the mid-1950s version of the Rule 5 draft, but no other hitter this good has ever been willingly cut loose.
The Red Sox this spring signed the former castoff to a four-year, $52 million extension, keeping him in Boston through 2010. It’s just another reason why Big Papi is smiling. “I’m not going to lie, I got frustrated a lot before [Boston],” Ortiz says. “It’s been tough. The worst was losing my mom. Losing her was something I ­couldn’t figure out at the time. I was, like, lost and confused.
“When things ­weren’t going good, she would always say, ‘Son, you’re always going to be my baby boy. Keep fighting. I love you.’ Now, even though I don’t have that voice, I feel that spirit to fight back when times are tough. My mom, she’s still always there for me. Always.”
▀ Sports Illustrated | June 19, 2006 -- Who's Your Papi? By Tom Verducci

[Tanner2126]

Yeah Tanner, but who would you get if you're leading 10-0 and need a 3-run homerun to make it 13-0?

ummm A-Rod of course!!!!! STUPID QUESTION! :D

I also would want A-Rod up if the Yankees were down 9-2 with no one on to hit a homerun.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Go Twins! Finally the Blue Jays are gaining some ground! This division should come down to the Yankees and Blue Jays like I thought before the season.

[Tanner2126]

Time to take Boston away from that top position!

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/10/01/1128172571_5105.jpg

http://www.petetschudy.com/blog/archives/random_images/october05/2.jpg

Now thats the way it should be!

[Arodjr]

^^^ Sweet!!!

[Arodjr]

Boy, Ortiz sure is taking it out on the Twins this series!

[Mark Weber]

You dont get a player like Lorretta for a back up catcher.

Unless it's a salary dump-trade, like when Boston acquired Curt Schilling. And Lowell & Beckett.

[Mark Weber]

Getting Zito would be a huge boost to the front of the pitching staff since its made up of pretenders.

The "pretenders" are currently second in team ERA in the A.L. and sixth in all of MLB. Boston is 10th in the A.L. and 17th in all of MLB.

Please don't let the stats get in the way of your argument. There's always "being clutch" and "having heart" and you can't measure that...

[rimpila3]

Man, the Twins are really taking it to the Red Sox. Johan made them look like a bunch of Little Leaguers last night.

[Mark Weber]

It hasn’t exactly been the best of months for Alex Rodriguez.

Can you imagine what New York's lead would look like if A-Rod had delivered even an average month? My God.

[Mark Weber]

Vince I think you have been eatting to many Johnny Cakes.....please....If you would rather have Arodover Papi then so be it. Do a poll and 90% of the people will take Papi.

I bet you could push that number to 100% if "Papi" would bother to learn to play defense. Is he really hitting .250 this year? Do you think he'll rally and end up with a better average with RISP than A-Rod? THe he'd have heart and still be clutch to go with the stats! :)

[Mark Weber]

And I'm spent...

[robertbee]

Unless it's a salary dump-trade, like when Boston acquired Curt Schilling. And Lowell & Beckett
Lowell has been great. Not bad for a throw in. People (Yankee fans) if you want to call them people. Were saying Schilling was washed up as was Lowell. Well these 2 guys and Papelbon have bee carrying the Sox. I am not worried about Manny or Papi. They will get hot sooner than later. I will take Ortiz over Arod any day. The DH is part of the game get over it. Just like a closer is part of the game. Ortiz is hitting the ball well. Just at players. The hits will come. We all know what he is capable. One of the top leaders in home runs and rbi's. mark can you change this threads title? The Mets are the kings of NY. Yankees time has come and gone. But hey. You got Sturtze coming back. :p

[robertbee]

And I'm spent...
Mark Weber


I bet. I would be too if I was a fan of these Yankees.


Mark what is your stance on Steriod and HGH in baseball?
Is there a double standard if they were pinstripes?
What would you do if you were commish?

[Vinnie4]

Lowell has been great. Not bad for a throw in. People (Yankee fans) if you want to call them people. Were saying Schilling was washed up as was Lowell. Well these 2 guys and Papelbon have bee carrying the Sox. I am not worried about Manny or Papi. They will get hot sooner than later. I will take Ortiz over Arod any day. The DH is part of the game get over it. Just like a closer is part of the game. Ortiz is hitting the ball well. Just at players. The hits will come. We all know what he is capable. One of the top leaders in home runs and rbi's. mark can you change this threads title? The Mets are the kings of NY. Yankees time has come and gone. But hey. You got Sturtze coming back. :p
A-Rod slumps and he's washed up. Ortiz slumps and he'll get hot soon, look what he did in the past. Hey robert, who was the A.L. player of the month for May? Let me guess.........Ortiz was screwed out of that too, wasn't he?

And the DH is part of the American League. You can't compare DH to a closer, because the National league uses closers, not DH. So you get over it.

The washed up ace looked pretty good last night, didn't he? Oh and Manny and Ortiz a combined 1/14 with 6 K's in 2 games against the powerhouse Twins.;)

[robertbee]

A-Rod slumps and he's washed up. Ortiz slumps and he'll get hot soon, look what he did in the past. Hey robert, who was the A.L. player of the month for May? Let me guess.........Ortiz was screwed out of that too, wasn't he?

And the DH is part of the American League. You can't compare DH to a closer, because the National league uses closers, not DH. So you get over it.

The washed up ace looked pretty good last night, didn't he? Oh and Manny and Ortiz a combined 1/14 with 6 K's in 2 games against the powerhouse Twins.;)

Glad to see no spelling errors Vincent. Who said Arod is washed up? That's coming from you. Lets not put words in peoples mouths. I say Arod is a bum. He is a selfish arogant *****erly type of person. He cares only for himself and had NEVER NEVER EVER been a good teammate. When he left Texas nobody had a good thing to say about him. Now that he is on a team where he is not the Top Adog. He can't come thru when it counts. Now does that sound like he's washed up? No it sounds like he's a bum, can't preform when it counts. I hope that clears the Afraud issue for you. Glad to rinse the Arod face cloth for you.
Screwed out of player of the month? Come on Vincent. That's weak. Who cares about player of the month. "Adogs"and you it seems. I hope you can find a poster of "player of the month" I bet its a hot collectors item.


And the DH is part of the American League. You can't compare DH to a closer, because the National league uses closers, not DH. So you get over it

Closer wins MVP plays less than a DH... What's the diffrence. Papelbon right now is the clear runner of the MVP in thee American league. Bringing up the National league is pretty weak if that's your argument I think they might be putting something in your Johnny Cakes up there.



The washed up ace looked pretty good last night, didn't he?


I didnt see the game. I am working night. I only dvr the Sox game. So how was he? Clean shaved? Was his uniform tight? Did he smile? What did you find about him that looked good or pretty. maybe he will head up north next time he's in town and you can share some Johnny Cakes.

Good day. All :)

[Tanner2126]

I also would want A-Rod up if the Yankees were down 9-2 with no one on to hit a homerun.

I apologize! He's better then that. He hits solo homeruns when its 6-1.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

OKAY! (Okay!) BLUE JAYS! (Blue Jays!) Lets...play...ball!

[Vinnie4]

Closer wins MVP plays less than a DH... What's the diffrence. Papelbon right now is the clear runner of the MVP in thee American league. Bringing up the National league is pretty weak if that's your argument I think they might be putting something in your Johnny Cakes up there.
Good day. All :)

The difference is, I like the NL games better. I like putting the bat in a pitcher's hand. I like the decisions the manager's have to make late in the game when the pitcher comes up to bat. I also like the fact that hitters have to play the field as well.

Please explain your infatuation with Johnny Cakes.

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

It's about time a Yankee pitcher stuck up for his club. It's been years since they have and the blame lies in the "superstar" attitude. In the 90's (96-99) the team were brothers and stuck up for each other - now they are stars. Good job to RJ for brushing Perez back - only bad thing is that scrum started he walked off the field :(

[Vinnie4]

It's about time a Yankee pitcher stuck up for his club. It's been years since they have and the blame lies in the "superstar" attitude. In the 90's (96-99) the team were brothers and stuck up for each other - now they are stars. Good job to RJ for brushing Perez back - only bad thing is that scrum started he walked off the field :(

And his 5 game suspension.

[Mark Weber]

Lowell has been great. Not bad for a throw in.

If you consider "The only way we'll trade Beckett is if you take Mike Lowell and his enormous salary" to be a throw-in. I'm not surprised that Lowell is playing well - he got great coaching in the minor leagues...

[Mark Weber]

I bet. I would be too if I was a fan of these Yankees.


Mark what is your stance on Steriod and HGH in baseball?
Is there a double standard if they were pinstripes?
What would you do if you were commish?

I'd enact violently strong testing procedures if I was the commissioner of baseball, and if the MLBPA balked I'd make it a public mudfight - asking them why they're afraid to undergo standardized drug testing. Baseball more than anything else needs their records and stats to link the present with the past, and the performance-enhancing substance use Bud Selig allowed on his watch is one of the worst scandals in the history of the sport.

I don't have a double-standard on anything bee, I call it like I see it. We can't have Jose Cansecos running around hitting steroid-fueled homers and making a joek of the record books. I'm sure you agree.

[Mark Weber]

So I decided to dive into the "Papi is clutch, A-Rod is a choker" thing by looking through this season's stats. Here's what I found in the pertinent categories:

BA with Runners On
Ortiz .289
A-Rod .278

BA with Runners In Scoring Position
Ortiz .284
A-Rod .306

BA with Runners In Scoring Position & 2 Outs
Ortiz .281
A-Rod .333

BA with Bases Loaded
Ortiz .286
A-Rod .500

"Close & Late" situations
Ortiz .206
A-Rod .118

What do those numbers tell me? It's true that A-Rod has been a major disappointment in "Close & Late" ballgames, but this season Ortiz's reputation for being "clutch late" is wildly overrated. Papi's .206 "Close and Late" average is significantly lower than his .261 overall average. Seems A-Rod has been doing his damage earlier in ballgames, as his average with runners on, RISP and bases loaded are pretty good.

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

How in the hell does the Big Unit get 5 games?????? He didn't even hit the guy! That's a crock of ****.

[GOSKINS_08]

So I decided to dive into the "Papi is clutch, A-Rod is a choker" thing by looking through this season's stats. Here's what I found in the pertinent categories:

BA with Runners On
Ortiz .289
A-Rod .278

BA with Runners In Scoring Position
Ortiz .284
A-Rod .306

BA with Runners In Scoring Position & 2 Outs
Ortiz .281
A-Rod .333

BA with Bases Loaded
Ortiz .286
A-Rod .500

"Close & Late" situations
Ortiz .206
A-Rod .118

What do those numbers tell me? It's true that A-Rod has been a major disappointment in "Close & Late" ballgames, but this season Ortiz's reputation for being "clutch late" is wildly overrated. Papi's .206 "Close and Late" average is significantly lower than his .261 overall average. Seems A-Rod has been doing his damage earlier in ballgames, as his average with runners on, RISP and bases loaded are pretty good.

Those must be stats when the game is 8-1 or 10-3..

[BlakChamber]

Go Twins! Finally the Blue Jays are gaining some ground! This division should come down to the Yankees and Blue Jays like I thought before the season.
I hope so. Would be nice to see the Jays get good again, and the Red Sox watching the post season from their homes.

[robertbee]

The difference is, I like the NL games better. I like putting the bat in a pitcher's hand. I like the decisions the manager's have to make late in the game when the pitcher comes up to bat. I also like the fact that hitters have to play the field as well.


The DH shoud be in the National league as well. Enough is enough. Having pitchers hit? No they should just pitch. having a DH adds a better dynamic to the game. Fans like power hitters. It makes the game more exciting. I would rather see Papi hitting a game winner than see Clement dropping a bunt. Having pitchers hit is foolish. The national league needs to get with the program. I can see why you prefer the National league. They all eat Johnny Cakes over there :D

[robertbee]

Originally Posted by Mark Weber
So I decided to dive into the "Papi is clutch, A-Rod is a choker" thing by looking through this season's stats. Here's what I found in the pertinent categories:


mark your stats seem to always favor you. Why just do this season? We know he's been the most cluth hitter over the last few years. I think you mentioned yellow journalism before? Is this no better that posting stats that favor you of a half season?


I got to go to work. Here are some more stats for you to ponder.
Have a good night. ANd lets get another papi figure on deck!

Click here: ESPN.com: Page 2 : Is David Ortiz really Mr. Clutch? (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=betweenthenumbers/ortiz/060405)

[Mark Weber]

If I pointed out his stats from season's prior, doesn't that only strengthen my argument that Ortiz hasn't been a clutch hitter THIS year? Bee, it's easier to have a discussion if you actually read my posts rather than flatly refute what you think I was probably saying.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

GO BLUE JAYS!

[Tanner2126]

GO BLUE JAYS!

you wanna make this a 3 way talking trash thread? BRING IT ON!

[Tanner2126]

What a day its turning out to be. Captn Clutch Derek Jeter once agian ends the game not striking out this time but a feeble ground out. THE YANKEES LOSE THE YANKEES LOSE.

Time to pull away. Thank you A's a sweep in the bronx. SWEET! Are the Jays in 2nd place now?

Thank you Twins, a sweep in Minnesota!

You asked, Are the Jays in 2nd place now?? YES...YES THEY ARE! :D Time for the Yankees to pull away.

Yankees are now on a 4-game losing skid...

Red Soxs are now on a 4-game losing skid...

[rimpila3]

Manny Ramirez = Chump

Nice series Boston, can't wait to take 3 more from you in September.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Time for the Yankees to pull away? Maybe from Boston but not from Toronto.:)

[Hardcore Legend]

The DH shoud be in the National league as well. Enough is enough. Having pitchers hit? No they should just pitch. having a DH adds a better dynamic to the game. Fans like power hitters. It makes the game more exciting. I would rather see Papi hitting a game winner than see Clement dropping a bunt. Having pitchers hit is foolish. The national league needs to get with the program. I can see why you prefer the National league. They all eat Johnny Cakes over there :D

No way. Having pitcher hit add for more strategy and two dimensional players. If all you care about is offense in baseball, why not just put the ball on a tee for the 7th hitter in a teams lineup? The DH shouldn't exist...but since it does in the AL, leave it. Don't let that crap creep over into the NL though. I like watching a pitcher come up and get a clutch hit when the other team has pitched around the 8 guy to get to him.

Anyways...

If Mike Mussina finishes with 20 wins this year, and 14 for the next 4, retires at 43 with 300 wins...is he a HOF?

[robertbee]

If Mike Mussina finishes with 20 wins this year, and 14 for the next 4, retires at 43 with 300 wins...is he a HOF?

No he's never won 20 games or a Cy Young award. Never won a World Series and 14 games for 4 years/ that's asking alot. I dont think he will win 20 this year. He history is to break down after the summer. When weather starts to trun sour so does he. Do you really think he had 4 years left? And no way is he a hall of famer But the Yankees may retire his number. They retire anybodys number :D

[Mark Weber]

No way is he (Mussina) a hall of famer But the Yankees may retire his number. They retire anybodys number :D

Stat Attack!

Of the 16 numbers retired in New York, 10 belong to members of the Hall of Fame:

3 - Babe Ruth (Thanks Boston!)
4 - Lou Gehrig
5 - Joe DiMaggio
7 - Mickey Mantle
8 - Yogi Berra/Bill ****ey
10 - Phil Rizzuto
16 - Whitey Ford
37 - Casey Stengel
42 - Jackie Robinson (Universally retired league-wide)
44 - Reggie Jackson

The other six numbers belong to:

1 - Billy Martin: Won five World Series as a Yankee (one less than Boston has won in 102 seasons)

9 - Roger Maris: Set baseball's single-season home run record

15 - Thurman Munson: Yankees captain played eleven seasons before his tragic death.

23 - Don Mattingly: Career Yankee (we keep our stars) and likely next manager

32 - Elston Howard: Played 13 seasons for New York - when his skills faded he went to Boston.

49 - Ron Guidry: Career Yankee (and current pitching coach) won 170 games over 14 seasons for New York.

Since we're digging into history a little bit, check this out:

Of the 30 Hall-of-Fame members who played for Boston in their careers, only THREE spent their entire careers as Red Sox (Doerr, Williams & Yastrzemski).

Of the 34 Hall-of-Fame members who played for New York in their careers, SEVEN spent their entire careers as a Yankee (Combs, ****ey, DiMaggio, Ford, Gehrig, Mantle & Rizzuto). One start for Washington and four games for the Mets keep Lefty Gomez and Yogi Berra from being the eighth and ninth "Career Yankees" in the Hall of Fame.

In short, the Yankees retire a lot of numbers because a lot of brilliant players wear our jersey and stay with our team. Boston doesn't retire many numbers because it's a rest stop. It's easy to find - head down the A.L. East standings and take the second exit. :)

[Vinnie4]

In short, the Yankees retire a lot of numbers because a lot of brilliant players wear our jersey and stay with our team. Boston doesn't retire many numbers because it's a rest stop. It's easy to find - head down the A.L. East standings and take the second exit. :)

Now that is funny.:D

[robertbee]

The $194,663,079 (http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2006) team! Hitting:
R. Johnson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4288): Avg .333!!
A. Rodriquez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5275): Avg .283 $22mil
J. Giambi (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5386): Avg .277 $20mil
B. Williams (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4695): Avg .260
M. Cabrera (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7595): Avg .272
Pitching:
A. Small (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5260): 8.20 ERA
T. Sturtze (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5341): 7.59 ERA
R. Johnson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4288): 5.63 ERA $16mil
S. Chacon (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6713): 5.23 ERA
J. Wright (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5839): 4.44 ERA $8mil
C. Wang (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7502): 4.52 ERA
C. Pavano (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5945): ?.?? ERA $8mil

[robertbee]

serious question about the Yankees...

1 Why do the Yankees players take so many curtain calls?

2. Why do yankee players give curtain calls when the fan are not even loud?

3. Why do Yankee players take curtains calls in the 5th inning of a 1-1 tie in a game in June?

[Vinnie4]

The $194,663,079 (http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2006) team! Hitting:
R. Johnson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4288): Avg .333!!
A. Rodriquez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5275): Avg .283 $22mil
J. Giambi (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5386): Avg .277 $20mil
B. Williams (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4695): Avg .260
M. Cabrera (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7595): Avg .272
Pitching:
A. Small (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5260): 8.20 ERA
T.

Sturtze (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5341): 7.59 ERA
R. Johnson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4288): 5.63 ERA $16mil
S. Chacon (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6713): 5.23 ERA
J. Wright (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5839): 4.44 ERA $8mil
C. Wang (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7502): 4.52 ERA
C. Pavano (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5945): ?.?? ERA $8mil

This list cracks me up. And you accuse Mark of only using certain stats to prove his point. I never realized the Yankees had only 11 players on their roster.

And this is the most important stat, which you omitted.
2006 Standings
American League East
NY Yankees 37 27
Boston 36 28
Toronto 37 29
Baltimore 30 38
Tampa Bay 27 40

[Mark Weber]

Bee, I'm not going to bother answering your points if you aren't even going to try and answer/spin/refute mine.

[Vinnie4]

serious question about the Yankees...

1 Why do the Yankees players take so many curtain calls?

2. Why do yankee players give curtain calls when the fan are not even loud?

3. Why do Yankee players take curtains calls in the 5th inning of a 1-1 tie in a game in June?

Let's see....maybe to show the fans that each of the players appreciates the support? Here's a novel idea for ya bee, stop watching Yankee games if you don't like it.

[robertbee]

Bee, I'm not going to bother answering your points if you aren't even going to try and answer/spin/refute mine.


Which question Mark? Are the points t sharp for you.. ZING>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:D

[robertbee]

Let's see....maybe to show the fans that each of the players appreciates the support?

Yes they need all the support the can get. :rolleyes:


Come on Vinessa you cando better than that.

[fenwayp]

Nice job by the Yankees to tie it up 5-5 in the 8th tonight, but HYSTERICAL that once again, AFRAUD shows his true lameness as he WHIFFS with the bases juiced to end the inning... :)

[Vinnie4]

I'll admit A-Rod is in a slump right now....but just remember Ortiz and Ramirez combined tonight were 0 for 7 with 3 K's and 3 runners heft on base. Neither one of them has been hitting very well either. I can't wait to hear the excuse robert comes up with to explain it off. Maybe we'll see more pictures from 2004. :rolleyes:

[Mark Weber]

Bee - start with me refuting your claim that the Yankees retire numbers for no real reason and move on to me showing how mightily David Ortiz is struggling in "clutch" situations this year.

What Yankee points are you considering "too sharp" for me to counter?

[robertbee]

I'll admit A-Rod is in a slump right now....but just remember Ortiz and Ramirez combined tonight were 0 for 7 with 3 K's and 3 runners heft on base. Neither one of them has been hitting very well either. I can't wait to hear the excuse robert comes up with to explain it off. Maybe we'll see more pictures from 2004. :rolleyes:

Vinnie4


you will admitt Arod is in a slump? Bravo Einstein. Were you recently in denial? What else do you want to admit?

No excuses from me. I will tell yo like it is. The Sox are playing horible ball. They had a good game tonight. Manny and Ortiz are slumping if you want to call it that. I bet alot of player wish they were slumping like Ortiz, top leader in Hr's and rbi's. baseball is a game of peaks and valley's. Hopefully tonight is the start of a peak. What has really hurt the sox are seanez, riske, tarverez. bull pen bullpen bullpen, they are keeping us with the pack intread of pulling us away. Riske shipped out. Lester was a good shot in the arm. The Starters are hurting somewhat but have been getting the job done for the most part. The machine will be fixed..Bullpen help is hard to find and one of this years set backs

Let me know if you want some pictures from 2004. Or any other year. I can email them to you. I do have most of the last 5 season on cd. I can burn you a copy as well. Makes for a good screen saver.


New York Yankees are pride, greed, and disloyalty in its grossest form a team of prostitutes ;)

[robertbee]

Bee - start with me refuting your claim that the Yankees retire numbers for no real reason and move on to me showing how mightily David Ortiz is struggling in "clutch" situations this year.

What Yankee points are you considering "too sharp" for me to counter?


Trash talking Mark, trash talking. All the Yankee greats belong there. Mattingly not great a good ball player. But not a Yankee great. Is his number retired? I bet it is. Why is it?


<H1 align=center>The New York Yankees Baseball Team

That's right. The devil. There's no other explanation for it. Either George Steinbrenner is the devil, or at least he's sold his soul to him. Never before in the history of sports has there been a man so drunk with power. This is the man who sold out his franchise player Don Mattingly, a man who had weathered all the barren years as the team's leader. Taking away his only opportunity for a championship by replacing him with Tino Martinez. His maniacal obsession with being "The Boss" has driven once beloved Yankees pitchers, Andy Pettite and Roger Clemens to head for Houston. George Steinbrenner is so power hungry, he managed to drive Don Zimmer to retirement. Zim! This is a guy who risked his life taking a bull charge at Pedro because he loved the Yankees so much. But this is a capitalist society, and money talks. So when Big George flashes the cash, the players take a look at it. It doesn't matter if they hate the Yankees. It doesn't matter that he'll screw them in the end. They can't resist the green. And George Steinbrenner has more of it than any other team. So they come.

</H1>


Hell is also a destination Mark. I think I would prefer a rest over in Boston than ending up in Ny and going to hell like they are all doing now. Time to pay the Devil.

[Vinnie4]

I gave a little credit to your previous posts robert, but that last one was really the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. That was pathetic, even for you. So where did that article come from, the office of Theo Epstein? Or did you come up with that all by yourself? You're a sad little man bee. So tell me, you wouldn't accept an offer from another company that offered you more money to do the same job you're doing now?

[ToightLikeATiger]

Good Night last night for the Redsox. Lester dominates and gets his first win in the big leauges. Papelbon closes it out. Lester/Papelbon hopefully a great combo for a long time.


btw kudos to Bernie Williams for hitting an important homerun (even at his old age and when people think he is washed up he does more to help the Yankees win then Arod). Also Kudos to him for not taking a curtain call afterwards because it wasnt the time for it.

Bernie is a true class act and is a true Yankee. Jeter, Posada and Mo are the only others left on that club. The rest are bringing the Yankees down with their ego's and lack of class

[Tanner2126]

Also Kudos to him for not taking a curtain call afterwards because it wasnt the time for it.



Why would he???

[Hardcore Legend]

Why would he???

Cause they were cheering for him to.

[Tanner2126]

Cause they were cheering for him to.

I understand that. But they were away. So I ask again, why would he?

[Vinnie4]

Good Night last night for the Redsox. Lester dominates and gets his first win in the big leauges. Papelbon closes it out. Lester/Papelbon hopefully a great combo for a long time.


btw kudos to Bernie Williams for hitting an important homerun (even at his old age and when people think he is washed up he does more to help the Yankees win then Arod). Also Kudos to him for not taking a curtain call afterwards because it wasnt the time for it.

Bernie is a true class act and is a true Yankee. Jeter, Posada and Mo are the only others left on that club. The rest are bringing the Yankees down with their ego's and lack of class
Matsui is a class act you forgot to mention. Also, I don't think anyone is bringing the Yankees down, they are coming together and playing through a lot of injuries to key players to lead the AL East.

Wouldn't Manny fall under the ego and lack of class category? Yes, he is a great hitter, but I don't think he's much of a team player.

Hey Toight, I have a question for ya....how many Boston players are "true Red Sox"?

[BlakChamber]

how many Boston players are "true Red Sox"?
All of them. Until they leave. Then they're traitors ;)

[DKM27]

it's embarrassing how much bee is getting schooled in this thread. each of his posts should have an asterisk.

*warning, this post does not represent the opinions of all red sox fans.

[Tanner2126]

A-Rod just hit a 2 run homerun with a tie game. I think im gonna faint!

[Vinnie4]

All of them. Until they leave. Then they're traitors ;)

And now I know what it feels like to have iced tea come out my nose.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Only the Yankees can blow a 7-run lead against one of the worst hitting teams in baseball.

[fenwayp]

GO NATIONALS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RED SOX BACK IN A TIE FOR FIRST PLACE !!

[Vinnie4]

GO NATIONALS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RED SOX BACK IN A TIE FOR FIRST PLACE !!
Wow, it's nice to hear from you.

[Vinnie4]

Only the Yankees can blow a 7-run lead against one of the worst hitting teams in baseball.
The Nats were hitting today. Did you watch the game, or just injecting your 2 cents from looking at the box score?

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

They're still an awful hitting team but I'm happy my comment irked you so much.

[Vinnie4]

Didn't irk me, just showed me you like to spout at the mouth with minimal facts. I understand the frustration of rooting for the 3rd best team in the division.

[fenwayp]

I understand the frustration of rooting for the 3rd best team in the division.

LOL...you said it, Vinnie...

1) Red Sox :D
2) Blue Jays:)
3) Yankees :eek:

[legendkiller533]

i hate the yankees.................that is all

[Todd13]

Didn't irk me, just showed me you like to spout at the mouth with minimal facts. I understand the frustration of rooting for the 3rd best team in the division.You tell him Vinnie! He just wants to hang with the Big Boys.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Didn't irk me, just showed me you like to spout at the mouth with minimal facts. I understand the frustration of rooting for the 3rd best team in the division.

That's pretty funny considering you were the one venting your frustration towards my initial comment regarding the hitting woes of the Nats. Maybe you should shut up for a second and take a look at the numbers, I don't know how the 4th worst offensive team in the majors can come back from 7 runs down in less than half a game. I also don't understand how you connect me simply pointing that out with something totally unrelated but hey, those are the ways of Yankee fans.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

You tell him Vinnie! He just wants to hang with the Big Boys.

The "Big Boys"? :rolleyes: Only one team from the divison will make the playoffs.

[GOSKINS_08]

Watch out for the O's! We beat the mets 2 straight games now!

[deion210237]

bump this post until july 11th when the real baseball season starts. all star game folks after that we can talk all the trash we want

[robertbee]

Wow. They Yankees ended up losing? I was at the Manchest Fishercats Game tonight. Just getting in. I can't beleive it. I saw highlights of Damon going off. And they were up BIG TIME. It just goes to show The Yankees Suck!



So tell me, you wouldn't accept an offer from another company that offered you more money to do the same job you're doing now?
Vinnie4


:rolleyes:

[Mark Weber]

Hopefully New York will continue to suck enough for your beloved Red Sox to stay in the hunt... :)

[fenwayp]

I understand the frustration of rooting for the 3rd best team in the division.

Even Vinnie Mattingly admits that the Yankees suck :eek: :D :eek:

[Vinnie4]

Even Vinnie Mattingly admits that the Yankees suck :eek: :D :eek:
Then what does that say for the Red Sox, who are tied for first with the Yankees?

[Vinnie4]

That's pretty funny considering you were the one venting your frustration towards my initial comment regarding the hitting woes of the Nats. Maybe you should shut up for a second and take a look at the numbers, I don't know how the 4th worst offensive team in the majors can come back from 7 runs down in less than half a game. I also don't understand how you connect me simply pointing that out with something totally unrelated but hey, those are the ways of Yankee fans.
So I guess it is completely out of the realm of possiblity for a bad hitting team to have a great offensive day. Likewise when an offensive powerhouse gets shut out. And maybe you should shut of for a second and think about that before you run your mouth. Did you get grounded for the weekend.....you seem a little cranky.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Hopefully New York will continue to suck enough for your beloved Red Sox to stay in the hunt... :)

Redsox have spent more days in first place then the Yankees this year by quite a bit. so i wouldnt say that at all.

both teams will have 90-100 wins and it will go down to the wire.

[Mark Weber]

Let me know if you want some pictures from 2004. Or any other year. I can email them to you. I do have most of the last 5 season on cd. I can burn you a copy as well. Makes for a good screen saver.

Got any of Wakefield from ALCS Game Seven in 2003?

[Mark Weber]

Trash talking Mark, trash talking. All the Yankee greats belong there. Mattingly not great a good ball player. But not a Yankee great. Is his number retired? I bet it is. Why is it?

Is Mattingly one of the greatest ballplayers to ever wear a Yankee uniform? Maybe not. Is he a Yankee Great? ABSOLUTELY.

Mattingly will always be remembered warmly in Yankee Stadium for being the team's Captain, and for the six full seasons of pure dominance he put together before his back injury in 1989. In those six seasons, Mattingly earned six trips to the All-Star Game, five Gold Gloves and one A.L. MVP. Mattingly put together 1219 hits in the six-year span - only Wade Boggs (with 1274 from 1983-89) had more hits in a six-year span for Boston.

Before the obligatory "That's only six years!" response, I'll remind you that Manny Ramirez is playing his sixth Boston season right now, and that David Ortiz won't play his sixth Boston season until 2008 (if he's still with Boston in two years).

For comparison:

Mattingly's 2153 hits place him 6th on New York's all-time list.
He'd be fifth on Boston's - behind Yaz, Ted Williams, Jim Rice & Dwight Evans.

Mattingly's 222 Yankee homers are seven more than Manny has hit for the Red Sox.

Mattingly is a career Yankee - a guy who came up from their minor leagues and retired wearing the pinstripes. That sort of career breeds exceptional loyalty from fans, at least from Yankee fans. Though Mattingly's career went from dominant to dangerous following his back injury, he's a guy who started and stopped with the club, put up some tremndous numbers, won a pile of awards, and played with absolute class. Why wouldn't you retire his number?

Maybe Mattingly is like Boggs to Boston fans. I mean like what Boggs meant before Boston turned on him and you shipped him away. Maybe Mattingly to Yankee fans is like Jim Rice or Dwight Evans should be to Boston fans. Why aren't Rice & Evans' numbers retired in Boston?

[BlakChamber]

Got any of Wakefield from ALCS Game Seven in 2003?
Mark, quit living in the past. Don't you know the only time its appropriate to bring up the past is when talking about 2004? ;)

[Mark Weber]

Sometimes when I read this thread I still think it is 2004. :)

[ToightLikeATiger]

Sometimes when I read this thread I still think it is 2004. :)

atleast you feel like its 2 years ago.... to every other baseball fan is this thread it feels like last century:D

[fenwayp]

Then what does that say for the Red Sox, who are tied for first with the Yankees?

You are the one who said you understand the frustration of rooting for the 3rd best team in the Division....so, as a yankee fan that means you think the Yankees are 3rd best in the division...

YANKEES
STILL
SUCK :D :D :D

[fenwayp]

Got any of Wakefield from ALCS Game Seven in 2003?

How'd the Yankees do in the World Series that year, Mark ?

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Ouch, it seems like Yankee fans just ignore what everyone has to say except for robertbee where they know they can pick him apart.

[robertbee]

Is Mattingly one of the greatest ballplayers to ever wear a Yankee uniform? Maybe not. Is he a Yankee Great? ABSOLUTELY. Mark Weber


Jim Rice....Way better...



Mattingly's 222 Yankee homers are seven more than Manny has hit for the Red Sox.
Your stat's are alway favored to you Mark. And how many home runs before the Sox?



The real problem is that Yankees fans think that somehow they're better than every other teams fans. The reason they think that Yankee haters are jealous is because they believe that their organization and fan base is inherently superior. And that's why they justify their obscene payroll and they way they prey upon the smaller markets. They feel that they deserve to have the unfair advantage. And it's this blind arrogance that allows the Yankees and their fans to pride themselves on beating a team like the Oakland A's.


Hey didn't they get swept?;)


Originally Posted by Mark Weber
Got any of Wakefield from ALCS Game Seven in 2003?

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2003/10/17/image578584x.jpg

Her you go Mark. A look back at the glory day for you. Nothing bright has happend since. Lets call it the Curse of the Knuckle Ball.



Mark, quit living in the past. Don't you know the only time its appropriate to bring up the past is when talking about 2004? ;)
BlakChamber



It's important to point out past post-season success as often as possible. However, if anyone points out anything in the past that doesn't reflect positively on the Yankees, then argue that it happened in the past and doesn't matter now. For example, it's okay to point out that the Yankees beat the Mets in the 2000 WS, even though the Mets had a better season won/loss record. Yet Yankee fans dismiss the 2003 Marlins victory over their $182 million juggernaut by saying the Marlins just had a 'lucky week". If you mention the Yankee loses in 2001 to the D'Backs and 2002 to the Angels, Yankee fans will argue that it happened in the past ... doesn't matter now and besides the Yankees have 26 championships.

:cool:



Hopefully New York will continue to suck enough for your beloved Red Sox to stay in the hunt... :)
Mark Weber


L:ets hope. they way t hings are going the wild card many comeout of the centrel so the AL East title could be the ticket to another world series championship.

[ToightLikeATiger]

i dont know who made that mattingly homeruns comment but i find that real funny.

So as a Yankee in all his career Mattingly has 7 more homeruns then Manny does in his Redsox career.

So lets see... in about a month Manny will have more Redsox homeruns then Mattingly had Yankees homeruns.

Oh yeah Manny has been a Redsox for fewer years too.

that has got to be one of the dumber arguements i have ever heard in this rivalry.

[Vinnie4]

i dont know who made that mattingly homeruns comment but i find that real funny.

So as a Yankee in all his career Mattingly has 7 more homeruns then Manny does in his Redsox career.

So lets see... in about a month Manny will have more Redsox homeruns then Mattingly had Yankees homeruns.

Oh yeah Manny has been a Redsox for fewer years too.

that has got to be one of the dumber arguements i have ever heard in this rivalry.

All Mark was doing with Mattingly was showing Yankee fans love for him would equate with Sox fan's love of Manny, comparing his and Manny's equal time with the respective clubs. Try not being so narrow minded next time.

[Vinnie4]

You are the one who said you understand the frustration of rooting for the 3rd best team in the Division....so, as a yankee fan that means you think the Yankees are 3rd best in the division...

YANKEES
STILL
SUCK :D :D :D
Actually, that comes from being a Yankee fan in the late 80's and early 90's.:p

[Vinnie4]

Ouch, it seems like Yankee fans just ignore what everyone has to say except for robertbee where they know they can pick him apart.
I quoted you and addresed you, so you can't say I ignore you. Guess you had nothing more to say on the subject.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

I had no reason to respond to you, I told you what I thought and you did the same. No big deal.

[Vinnie4]

I had no reason to respond to you, I told you what I thought and you did the same. No big deal.
Ok then. No hard feelings.

[Mark Weber]

How'd the Yankees do in the World Series that year, Mark ?

As I recall, 2003 is not one of the 26 years when the Yankees ended World Champions.

[Vinnie4]

A-Rod seems to be coming out of his slump. Nice to see him coming around. I'm glad Mattingly is the hitting coach.

[robertbee]

Originally Posted by fenwayp
How'd the Yankees do in the World Series that year, Mark ?




example #1
As I recall, 2003 is not one of the 26 years when the Yankees ended World Champions.

Mark Weber



It's important to point out past post-season success as often as possible. However, if anyone points out anything in the past that doesn't reflect positively on the Yankees, then argue that it happened in the past and doesn't matter now. For example, it's okay to point out that the Yankees beat the Mets in the 2000 WS, even though the Mets had a better season won/loss record. Yet Yankee fans dismiss the 2003 Marlins victory over their $182 million juggernaut by saying the Marlins just had a 'lucky week". If you mention the Yankee loses in 2001 to the D'Backs and 2002 to the Angels, Yankee fans will argue that it happened in the past ... doesn't matter now and besides the Yankees have 26 championships.

refer to example #1 above :D



As if you were alive and witnessed all of the Yankees 26 championships personally! Geezzz!!!!!!!!!!! The Yankees won many of their championships when there were only 8 teams in the league. They were always at the top or very close once they purchased Babe Ruth. The trend never ceased. The Yankees don't always win when they spend the most, yet one truth is they never win when they don't. Cyndi Lauper is right. Money changes everything.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

The Nats strike again! Walk off HR by Zimmerman!

[ToightLikeATiger]

The Nats strike again! Walk off HR by Zimmerman!

that happened seconds ago... doesnt matter anymore. its in the past. 26 world titles baby!:D

[robertbee]

The Nats strike again! Walk off HR by Zimmerman!

Get out really? My lord the Nats are coming to Boston this week shall we fear the might Nats. It seem like the Yankees cant beat National league teams. World series or interleague. Why don't the Yankees get players like Sariano or Contrea's (16 or 15 in a row is it?) The Yankees lose. Thaaaa Yankees loseeee :p

[Roper]

The Nats strike again! Walk off HR by Zimmerman!

that's a shame.

Go Schilling!

[fenwayp]

Way to leave WANG CHUNG in, Torre :) Rivera was still recovering from yesterday's fine outing, I guess :D Ryan Zimmerman ??? LOL...

YANKEES SUCK !!

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[fenwayp]

that happened seconds ago... doesnt matter anymore. its in the past. 26 world titles baby!:D

LOL :D :D :D

We "live in the past" when we refer to 2004 and the Yankees Colossal Colapse, but Mark can pull out the 26 World Championships and it's just a "fact"...:rolleyes:

[Roper]

Where's Scott Proctor when you need him?:rolleyes:

I'm guessing Proctor was in the trainer's room putting more scotch tape on his shoulder to hold it together?

[robertbee]

Where's Scott Proctor when you need him?:rolleyes:


It was brought to my attention that he was holding hands with the might Villone and Farnsworthless. . They sent Small on assingment. Talk about a rest stop. I thought NY was a destionation? He carried the Yankees into the playoffs. One and done in NY. But hey help is on the way Doctel... He's the answer

[Roper]

According to the Associated Press, pitcher Jose Veras was just called up by the Yankees. He'll save the day. He must be good because Texas let him go.

As for Farnsworth, Cashman will just throw another $17 million at another overrated set up guy next year....

[robertbee]

Yankees are know for throwing money at aging players, low class prospects, and signing poeple so other teams wont sign them. Same old song and dance.

Man what a tough weekend for the Yankees and thier fans, First breaking the Royals losing streak in embarssing fashion and now too the Nats. I would file that under a team with no heart and no chemistry. What a car wreck. A nice one at that.
And speaking of car wrexk, "calling Carl Pavano were are thou? Will be pitching on flat ground soon., I wonder how long he will last as a yankee before he's shipped out like the rest of them. A destination? I don't think so. Looks like a rest area to me.

[Todd13]

The "Big Boys"? :rolleyes: Only one team from the divison will make the playoffs.What else do you see in that crystal ball? Only the big boys have a thread about their rivalry. I think you post on here just to be a part of it. LOL.
Maybe you can make the Blue Jays vs anybody thread.

[robertbee]

Boston back atop AL East:)

[fenwayp]

Boston back atop AL East:)

:D :D :D

[Mark Weber]

Let me know if you want some pictures from 2004. Or any other year.[/FONT]

Let’s take a look at the 2004 World Champion Red Sox, shall we?

Trot Nixon
http://cache.boston.com/images/sports/redsox/2004/1027_trot2_800600.jpg

Kevin Youkilis
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/images/2004/08/15/7yd4AWmr.jpg

Johnny Damon
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/damon_johnny_yanks051223cp.jpg

Orlando Cabrera
http://cache.boston.com/images/bostondirtdogs//Headline_Archives/10-6-OC-reu-bdd.jpg

Bill Mueller
http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_119482.jpg

Mark Bellhorn
http://www.markbellhorn.net/images/photos/043006_winsingle_2.jpg

Pokey Reese
http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nl/cincyreds/Pokey.jpg

Kevin Millar
http://www.covers.com/images/2006/180x180/millar_kevin060505.jpg

Doug Mientkiewicz
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/65x90/6138.jpg

Bronson Arroyo
http://www.covers.com/images/2006/180x180/arroyo_bronson060426.jpg

Derek Lowe
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050831/050831_lowe_hmed_4p.hmedium.jpg

Pedro Martinez
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/photos/popups/2005_spring_training/mets/images/091.jpg

Alan Embree
http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/images/2002/06/23/J77HE2jg.jpg

Mike Myers
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_119624.jpg

Dave Roberts
http://www.rstn.tv/images/2005/03/04/UdYkBIKa.jpg

Gabe Kapler
http://www.jasonhoke.com/gabedtwtigers3

Curtis Leskanic
http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nl/milbrewers/Leskanicmil.jpg

Ramiro Mendoza
http://www.onlinesports.com/images/bj-menrpix0802.jpg

Manny Ramirez
http://www.sportsposterwarehouse.com/warehouse/ramirez96sl-1.jpg

David Ortiz
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38305000/jpg/_38305899_ortiz_getty300.jpg

Doug Mirabelli
http://z.lee28.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/mj7.jpg

Curt Schilling
http://images.azsnakepit.com/images/admin/schilling.jpg

Keith Foulke
http://images.sportsnetwork.com/mlb/getty/oakland/2003/foulke_keith.jpg

Mike Timlin
http://www.canoe.ca/TBJImages/timlin_mike200.jpg

Jason Varitek
http://realitytv.about.com/library/images/bl-jasonveritex.jpg

Tim Wakefield
http://realitytv.about.com/library/images/bl-timwakefield.jpg

People often complain that the Yankees buy their championships, but it’s altogether possible that the 2004 Red Sox were the first team to rent a title.

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

Let’s take a look at the 2004 World Champion Red sox, shall we?

Trot Nixon
http://cache.boston.com/images/sports/redsox/2004/1027_trot2_800600.jpg

Kevin Youkilis
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/YoukilisForMVP/Red%20Sox/Kevin%20Youkilis/youk02.jpg

Johnny Damon
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/damon_johnny_yanks051223cp.jpg

Orlando Cabrera
http://cache.boston.com/images/bostondirtdogs//Headline_Archives/10-6-OC-reu-bdd.jpg

Bill Mueller
http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_119482.jpg

Mark Bellhorn
http://www.markbellhorn.net/images/photos/043006_winsingle_2.jpg

Pokey Reese
http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nl/cincyreds/Pokey.jpg

Kevin Millar
http://www.covers.com/images/2006/180x180/millar_kevin060505.jpg

Doug Mientkiewicz
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/65x90/6138.jpg

Bronson Arroyo
http://www.covers.com/images/2006/180x180/arroyo_bronson060426.jpg

Derek Lowe
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050831/050831_lowe_hmed_4p.hmedium.jpg

Pedro Martinez
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/photos/popups/2005_spring_training/mets/images/091.jpg

Alan Embree
http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/images/2002/06/23/J77HE2jg.jpg

Mike Myers
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_119624.jpg

Gabe Kapler
http://www.jasonhoke.com/gabedtwtigers3

Curtis Leskanic
http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nl/milbrewers/Leskanicmil.jpg

Ramiro Mendoza
http://www.onlinesports.com/images/bj-menrpix0802.jpg

Manny Ramirez
http://www.sportsposterwarehouse.com/warehouse/ramirez96sl-1.jpg

David Ortiz
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38305000/jpg/_38305899_ortiz_getty300.jpg

Doug Mirabelli
http://z.lee28.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/mj7.jpg

Curt Schilling
http://images.azsnakepit.com/images/admin/schilling.jpg

Keith Foulke
http://images.sportsnetwork.com/mlb/getty/oakland/2003/foulke_keith.jpg

Mike Timlin
http://www.canoe.ca/TBJImages/timlin_mike200.jpg

Jason Varitek
http://realitytv.about.com/library/images/bl-jasonveritex.jpg

Tim Wakefield
http://realitytv.about.com/library/images/bl-timwakefield.jpg

People often complain that the Yankees buy their championships, but it’s altogether possible that the 2004 Red Sox were the first team to rent a title.
OHHHH. Robertbee gets OWNED!!!!

[Vinnie4]

He'll fire back with some comment about heart, desire, and the freedom of a nation.

[BlakChamber]

He'll fire back with some comment about heart, desire, and the freedom of a nation.
Don't forget a comment about how we should stop living in the past.

And then it will only take 3 posts for him to bring up the Sox winning in 04.

[Vinnie4]

Don't forget a comment about how we should stop living in the past.

And then it will only take 3 posts for him to bring up the Sox winning in 04.
LMAO. 3 huh? You think he has the willpower?

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

Don't forget a comment about how we should stop living in the past.

And then it will only take 3 posts for him to bring up the Sox winning in 04.
hahaha

[legendkiller533]

ok so they got players from different teams i fail to see how that means they rented a title, since 11 or those players are still on the team

[Vinnie4]

ok so they got players from different teams i fail to see how that means they rented a title, since 11 or those players are still on the team

It takes away from the sting of the joke if you have to explain it.

[Mark Weber]

ok so they got players from different teams i fail to see how that means they rented a title, since 11 or those players are still on the team

I count ten (nine if you consider Mirabelli left and got traded back).

BOSTON = REST STOP

That's my point. For all the peeps who love the 04 Red Sox, they sure didn't seem like they wanted to stay in Boston any longer than they had to.

[robertbee]

Good to kow you Yankee fans have come out of yur hole. After a disgraceful weekend and not seeing anyone of you here for a while It was peaceful.

http://www.boontdusties.com/images/ostrich.jpg

[Yukoner]

Let's see:
2003 Red Sox Team Salary: $99.9M NYY Team Salary: $152.7M
2004 Red Sox Team Salary: $127.3M NYY Team Salary: $185.2M
2005 Red Sox Team Salary: $123.5M NYY Team Salary: $208.3M
2006 Red Sox Team Salary: $120.6M NYY Team Salary: $195.6M

Percentage increase since 2003:
Red Sox: 21% NYY: 28%

I especially love the fact the Boston World Series win enraged George so much he spent an extra $23 million the following year. Excellent investment!

By holding onto key regulars like Pedro, Lowe et al, the payroll would have increased substantially. Also, incidentally, the one GM that is actually in control (Theo Epstein) knew his team had to win in 2004 because it would be torn apart after due free agency.

A little short-sighted through jaundiced eyes, perhaps, Mark. Not too many teams can keep increasing payroll without repercussions. In fact, no other team can afford to make the Yankees mistakes. And let's not get into the George spends for the fans inside the existing system crud, because we all know George cooks his books.

[robertbee]

BOSTON = REST STOP
Mark Weber


Come on Mark. NY is the king of rest stops. They paved the way off the highway and invented the rest stop. Lets not act like the Yankees have all home grow players. They have a few token players and thats it. For example (not including the recent call ups due to injury. They are thier BECAUSE OF INJURY)
Jeter, B Williams, Pettitte, Rivera, and Posada are all home-grown talent. Then, hope that nobody notices this represents only a minority of players, and hope the other person doesn't bring up Matsui, Contreras, Boone, Delucci, Heredia, G. White, Brosius, knobjob, Mark Wohlers, Wetlland, John Flaherty ,Garcia, Nelson, Soriano, Clemens, Mussina, Giambi, Hammond, Karsay, Widger, Wells, Weaver, Sierra Brown , Pavano Sheffield, Giambi, Wright, Damon. and (add in latest Free Agents here) Hope they don't mention the fact that guys like Cuban defector - Andy '$4 million" Morales, El Duqicito $5 million and Drew "$17 million" Henson were acquired and didn't play much - if at all. Remember when the Yankees picked up Jose Canseco a few years ago, just so another team wouldn't claim him off waivers. Oh the luxury to buy players simply to keep other teams from obtaining them. Must be the Yankee Mystic and Aura no doubt.

A destionation? People who live in grass houses should chuck spears Mr Weber.
Looks like on of the biggest rest stops in MLB.

[Vinnie4]

Let's see:
2003 Red Sox Team Salary: $99.9M NYY Team Salary: $152.7M
2004 Red Sox Team Salary: $127.3M NYY Team Salary: $185.2M
2005 Red Sox Team Salary: $123.5M NYY Team Salary: $208.3M
2006 Red Sox Team Salary: $120.6M NYY Team Salary: $195.6M

Percentage increase since 2003:
Red Sox: 21% NYY: 28%

I especially love the fact the Boston World Series win enraged George so much he spent an extra $23 million the following year. Excellent investment!

By holding onto key regulars like Pedro, Lowe et al, the payroll would have increased substantially. Also, incidentally, the one GM that is actually in control (Theo Epstein) knew his team had to win in 2004 because it would be torn apart after due free agency.

A little short-sighted through jaundiced eyes, perhaps, Mark. Not too many teams can keep increasing payroll without repercussions. In fact, no other team can afford to make the Yankees mistakes. And let's not get into the George spends for the fans inside the existing system crud, because we all know George cooks his books.

And here comes the argument about the Evil Empire and their spending, and how the poor Red Sox have to spend to keep up.

Oh, and it is a pleasure to meet you, Mr. Steinbrenner's accountant.

[robertbee]

Too Legit to Quit
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/BDD_KY_6.18_reu.jpg
(Reuters Photo)
The Father of All Rallies
Comeback Kids Complete Sweep in Atlanta
Overcome Poison Pen, Deep-6 Braves with 8-Ball, 10-7 (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/06/19/great_eighth_six_runs_lifts_sox/)
It Had to Be Youk: Kevin Crushes Another Big Homer on the Road
Dominican Dynamite: Ortiz, Manny Long Balls Get Sox Rolling Early
Pinch Me: Lowell is Double Trouble for NL East Celler Dwellers
Schill Win Blown: Curt Can't Count on 'Pen Again
Nixon Makes a Great Grab, and Is Right in the Thick of Things
49'er: Congratulations to Sure-Handed Shortstop Alex Gonzalez
Good Grief Relief: Seanez Gets the Win
Papelbon Marches On
"We bounced right back with a vengeance and that's awesome. That's a losable game and it hurts. And it winds up being a great inning. There was no letup." -- 6.18.06, Terry Francona on the comeback kids

[robertbee]

And here comes .....I like how........isn't it funny how.... not for nothing....it is what it is....you hear what I'm saying....

:rolleyes:

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

^ HaHa. If I were in a coma from 2004 until now I'd wonder who have the players were and why they were on the Red Sox last night...

[robertbee]

HaHa. If I were in a coma from 2004 until now I'd wonder who have the players were and why they were on the Red Sox last night...
26WorldSeries



who have the players were


Sounds like you were in a coma. Best of luck to you. Glad you snapped out of it.

[Yukoner]

And here comes the argument about the Evil Empire and their spending, and how the poor Red Sox have to spend to keep up.

Oh, and it is a pleasure to meet you, Mr. Steinbrenner's accountant.

It's not an argument if it's the truth.

Or do you dispute the fact that in order to compete with a big-dollar bully you have two options:

1. Spend
2. Wait five to 10 years, draft well, hopefully get lucky, and compete for two years.

For the record, George has deliberately undervalued the cable deal to lower baseball revenues and therefore pay less in luxury tax. He is also using a loophole to lower his luxury tax with the construction of the new stadium.

I'm no accountant, but I know loopholes and cheats when I see them.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

There's no need to post that Yukoner, the Yankee fans in this thread only respond to arguments they can pick apart.

[Yukoner]

Apologies. Perhaps I should toss this nugget out as well:

If the Red Sox weren't second in league payroll, how many Yankees fans would throw it in their faces that they refused to pay for a winner?

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Here's my nugget of info:

The Blue Jays have the best ex-Marlin cast-off in the division!

[Mark Weber]

NY is the king of rest stops. They have a few token players and thats it. Jeter, B Williams, Pettitte, Rivera, and Posada are all home-grown talent. Then, hope that nobody notices this represents only a minority of players...

You make an excellent point bee - the Yankees did win four World Championships on the strength of these five homegrown talents. Four of them might even get their numbers retired, which would equal the total number of numbers retired in Boston. I'm not sure why Boston doesn't hang up Jim Rice's #14 on the wall as one of the few Red Sox stars who came up through their system and didn't bolt via free agency or get traded away.

Come to think of it - why isn't Rice's # retired in Boston?

As for New York being a rest stop, I'll counter you naming every backup in recent memory by pointing to:

Joe DiMaggio - 13 seasons
Lou Gehrig - 17 seasons
Whitey Ford - 16 seasons
Ron Guidry - 14 seasons
Don Mattingly - 14 seasons
Phil Rizzuto - 13 seasons
Bill ****ey - 17 seasons
Thurman Munson - 11 seasons
Roy White - 15 seasons
Frank Crosetti - 17 seasons
Bobby Richardson - 12 seasons
Mickey Mantle - 18 seasons
Tommy Henrich - 11 seasons
Mel Stottlemyre - 11 seasons
Earle Combs - 12 seasons

15 Career Yankees who combined for 232 seasons in pinstripes.

(Jeter/Rivera/Posada/Bernie have combined for 52 combined seasons in their all-Yankee careers, but I don't count them yet as it's POSSIBLE they might leave at some point).

I'm not as well-read on Red Sox history, but near as I can tell the only notable players who endured their entire careers in Boston are:

Carl Yastrzemski: 23 seasons
Bobby Doerr: 14 seasons
Jim Rice: 16 seasons
Ted Williams: 19 seasons
Mike Greenwell: 12 seasons

Five Career Red Sox who combined for 95 combined seasons in their all-Boston careers.

[Mark Weber]

It's not an argument if it's the truth.

Or do you dispute the fact that in order to compete with a big-dollar bully you have two options:

1. Spend
2. Wait five to 10 years, draft well, hopefully get lucky, and compete for two years.

For the record, George has deliberately undervalued the cable deal to lower baseball revenues and therefore pay less in luxury tax. He is also using a loophole to lower his luxury tax with the construction of the new stadium.

I'm no accountant, but I know loopholes and cheats when I see them.

I've never disputed the Yankees' fiscal advantage over every other club in baseball. I wish there was a salary cap in MLB. I'm not sure how you can blame George for using every advantage the current system gives him to try and field a winner.

[robertbee]

You make an excellent point bee - the Yankees did win four World Championships on the strength of these five homegrown talents. Four of them might even get their numbers retired, which would equal the total number of numbers retired in Boston. I'm not sure why Boston doesn't hang up Jim Rice's #14 on the wall as one of the few Red Sox stars who came up through their system and didn't bolt via free agency or get traded away
Mark Weber



It's important to point out past post-season success as often as possible. However, if anyone points out anything in the past that doesn't reflect positively on the Yankees, then argue that it happened in the past and doesn't matter now. For example, it's okay to point out that the Yankees beat the Mets in the 2000 WS, even though the Mets had a better season won/loss record. Yet Yankee fans dismiss the 2003 Marlins victory over their $182 million juggernaut by saying the Marlins just had a 'lucky week". If you mention the Yankee loses in 2001 to the D'Backs and 2002 to the Angels, Yankee fans will argue that it happened in the past ... doesn't matter now and besides the Yankees have 26 championships

So Mark what is your point of pointing out that players come and go. You keep beating this drum? I find it pointless. It does not make the Yankees a better team this year. The managment has made countless of bad moves recently and its reflecting in no championships in recent years. You can keep pointing out past sucess but really. Does that make you feel better? I don't understand what your getting at? The blundering moves of the Yankees have made are not paying off and all the Yankee greats you dust off and throw at me does not hide the fact the this years yankees suck. Both our teams have had injuries and thats part of the game. Some play thru them others just stick thier big ass check in the back pocket. Not going to mention Sheffield the pretender. Its going to come down to who makes the better move and strenghtens the team down the stretch run. I have a feelin g Smoltz will be popping into the picture if the Braves continue to take a nose dive. I like what Lester brings to the table. Schilling is getting better, Beckett is having an outstanding season and has not been at top form. Papelbon is the best closer in the game today. Both teams pens are a fault. we need a 7th inning pitcher to get it to Timlin and Pap's. Out defense is outstanding. You may see gold gloves at 3rd and short, maybe 2nd and 1st if Lorretta and Yuk keep it up. For a team that has not been hitting the defense has been keeping us atop of the East. We will get it togetter soon than later.
Thanks for the history lesson of the Yankees. You will always have that. We are moving forward and looking to make some more history of out own.

[Vinnie4]

I've never disputed the Yankees' fiscal advantage over every other club in baseball. I wish there was a salary cap in MLB. I'm not sure how you can blame George for using every advantage the current system gives him to try and field a winner.
Because he doesn't own the Red Sox.

[Vinnie4]

So Mark what is your point of pointing out that players come and go. You keep beating this drum? I find it pointless. It does not make the Yankees a better team this year. The managment has made countless of bad moves recently and its reflecting in no championships in recent years. You can keep pointing out past sucess but really. Does that make you feel better? I don't understand what your getting at? The blundering moves of the Yankees have made are not paying off and all the Yankee greats you dust off and throw at me does not hide the fact the this years yankees suck. Both our teams have had injuries and thats part of the game. Some play thru them others just stick thier big ass check in the back pocket. Not going to mention Sheffield the pretender. Its going to come down to who makes the better move and strenghtens the team down the stretch run. I have a feelin g Smoltz will be popping into the picture if the Braves continue to take a nose dive. I like what Lester brings to the table. Schilling is getting better, Beckett is having an outstanding season and has not been at top form. Papelbon is the best closer in the game today. Both teams pens are a fault. we need a 7th inning pitcher to get it to Timlin and Pap's. Out defense is outstanding. You may see gold gloves at 3rd and short, maybe 2nd and 1st if Lorretta and Yuk keep it up. For a team that has not been hitting the defense has been keeping us atop of the East. We will get it togetter soon than later.
Thanks for the history lesson of the Yankees. You will always have that. We are moving forward and looking to make some more history of out own.
Because you keep bringing up the fact the Yankees bring in hired guns. Which proves the Red Sox do the same thing you fault the Yankees for. And the same reason you keep bringing up 2004.

[Vinnie4]

For example (not including the recent call ups due to injury. They are thier BECAUSE OF INJURY)


And how do you think many minor leaguers make the big clubs? That is a stupid comment. Why can you not include the recent call-ups? Did they come up through the Yankees farm system? Do they now contribute to the team on a daily basis? Yes to both.

[robertbee]

And how do you think many minor leaguers make the big clubs? That is a stupid comment. Why can you not include the recent call-ups? Did they come up through the Yankees farm system? Do they now contribute to the team on a daily basis? Yes to both

Vinny you think your a cacasenno Go read the paragraph. You have a way of taking statements and twisting them. That was not the topic. We all know how they make the clubs. The current players are call up. They were brought up do to injurt and need. Not because they were stellar players and earned it the right way. Patch players is what I call it.


Because you keep bringing up the fact the Yankees bring in hired guns. Which proves the Red Sox do the same thing you fault the Yankees for. And the same reason you keep bringing up 2004.


really what was that on page one? The topic was "rest stop and destination" I am sure you are well familar with rest stops. No doubt. ;) you cacasodo! When was the last time I brought up 2004. You brought that up. Thank you for the smile. What a great year that was. seems like yesterday...actually only months ago. Hey do you have the dvd? Pretty cool stuff. I hope you enjoy it.

[robertbee]

I'm not sure how you can blame George for using every advantage the current system gives him to try and field a winner

Winner? How long has it been since they won something besides the AL East?

Wow that long! Some advantage. Can't ever get that right. File that under ERROR:D

[Vinnie4]

Vinny you think your a cacasenno Go read the paragraph. You have a way of taking statements and twisting them. That was not the topic. We all know how they make the clubs. The current players are call up. They were brought up do to injurt and need. Not because they were stellar players and earned it the right way. Patch players is what I call it.

I quoted you directly, but I twisted your statement. So the contributions of Cabrera, Phillips, Crosby, etc. have to be discounted because you don't like the way they made the team?:rolleyes:

[robertbee]

I quoted you directly, but I twisted your statement. So the contributions of Cabrera, Phillips, Crosby, etc. have to be discounted because you don't like the way they made the team?:rolleyes:

That has nothing to do with the statement I made. That was not the argument. And they all suck. Once the other deadbeats come back they will be sent backing. All they are doing now is being showed off so NY can trade them away for a pitcher since they have no ace. Got to get to work. But have fun pondering on what you can try and pick apart next.

Answer me this Vinny since you never say anything except what other people say.

What do you like about this years Yankees?
What do you like about the why the Yankees are run?
Do you think cashman has done a good job?
Are you proud of King George and do you like his ways?
Why did you become a Yankee fan?

Lets hear about you Vinny. You seem to always try and put me down but neve express any of your thoughts except rebutting what I say.

The stage is yours Vincent. When I get back from work. I would be surprised to see anything at all or for the most part. One sentence to each qustions. You "WELL" is shallow I must say.

Have a good night.

[Vinnie4]

That has nothing to do with the statement I made. That was not the argument. And they all suck. Once the other deadbeats come back they will be sent backing. All they are doing now is being showed off so NY can trade them away for a pitcher since they have no ace. Got to get to work. But have fun pondering on what you can try and pick apart next.

Answer me this Vinny since you never say anything except what other people say.

What do you like about this years Yankees?
What do you like about the why the Yankees are run?
Do you think cashman has done a good job?
Are you proud of King George and do you like his ways?
Why did you become a Yankee fan?

Lets hear about you Vinny. You seem to always try and put me down but neve express any of your thoughts except rebutting what I say.

The stage is yours Vincent. When I get back from work. I would be surprised to see anything at all or for the most part. One sentence to each qustions. You "WELL" is shallow I must say.

Have a good night.
I like the fact that this year's Yankees have battled through several injuries to key players to keep themselves in the hunt for the division. I love the fact the Don Mattingly is the hitting coach. I like that the Yankees are bunting, stealing bases, and not just relying on the long ball.
The Yankees, as well as every other pro team, are businesses. They do what they need to do to stay prosperous. The Stadium fills up every home game, so obviously they are doing something right. Until there is a salary cap (which I am in favor of), overspending will continue. But to fault just the Yankees for this is ignorance.
Cashman has done a passable job. Could he have done better? Sure. But on that same note he could have done a lot worse.
Like I said before, overspending will continue until there is a salary cap. And no, I don't fault him for trying to improve on his multimillion dollar investment. Baseball is a business, and it is obvious he at least cares about his investments.
I'm a 3rd generation Yankee fan, and I grew up here in Vermont, right across the lake from New York. I went with the Yankees, and my brother chose the Mets.

How do I never express my thought by rebutting what you say? You voice your opinion, and I give you mine in return.
After the initial sting of 2004, I was honestly happy for the Red Sox fans. At first. But Sox fans like you popped up all over the place, spouting off about the greatness of Boston, after 1 championship in 86 years. That nonsense grew old very quickly. Now, not all Red Sox fans are like you, but there are lots of them out there.
The best thing about 2004 is that all Red Sox fans say is that the Yankees choked. In my opinion, the Red Sox staged an improbable comeback, but by saying the Yankee choked just takes away from that accomplishment. You're saying that it wasn't dominant play by Boston, but the Yankees not playing well, that gave Boston the series win. Maybe you need to get off your high horse and realize that in the last 86 years, teams like the Twins and Blue Jays have more championships. Try being a little more humble, and a little less narrow-minded.

And a good night to you

[robertbee]

Cashman has done a passable job

I disagree. I think he has tried one too m any times to take the short cut thru the woods and keeps running into dead ends. By signing all stars thinking that will bring the much need championship King George wants before he is sent to the passtures.
Time and time again he keeps shooting himself in the foot with the signs of older players who have little left in the tank and are injury prone. Letting players like Sorriano, Nick Johnson, Ted Lilly, Jose Contrea's Andy Pettie, walk from the so called destonation has hurt the Yankees in the long run. They have fallen off the path that made them such a good club with youth and a few key signings. Now its all about signing all stars in hope that they can bring one more for george. Not working. They brought in bad club house guys like Brown, Lofton, Johnson, Arod, the chemistry has been no exsistant for years now. Nobody on the team has fun. Its too serious and alot of pressure. Let the players be themselves and grow thier hair, let Damon be a caveman again. The players are to uptight.


I was honestly happy for the Red Sox fans. At first. But Sox fans like you popped up all over the place, spouting off about the greatness of Boston, after 1 championship in 86 years


HELLO!!!!!!! I have been saying that well before we ever won a championship. Go to page one of the Red Sox update and check the date. After putting up with the arrogance of yankee fans for all of our lives. 1918 being throw in our face over and over, Buckey Dent. Boone. It never ended Vinny. NEVER until 2004 and it was all put to rest. Now you cry and complain about us acting like arrogant yankee fans for 19 months. 19 freaking months and you act this way? BOO FREAKING HOO VINNY BOO HOO. Deal with it. We have for all of our lives. Now that you have to taste your own medicine it doesnt taste so good does it. Life has a funny way of sticking it right back at you. So Vinny. Right back at you! And please go genrelize me as all Red Sox fans. I am my own person and represnt me and only me.


The best thing about 2004 is that all Red Sox fans say is that the Yankees choked. In my opinion, the Red Sox staged an improbable comeback, but by saying the Yankee choked just takes away from that accomplishment


Choked Win whatever. We stuck it to the Yankees and danced on thier holy ground they call Yankee stadium. We gave you a taste of the heartbreak we endurred countless of times. To see the faces of the Yankee stadium fans were pure joy. Sugar coat it all you want. We had the greatest comeback in baseball something that never been done.

Maybe you need to get off your high horse and realize that in the last 86 years, teams like the Twins and Blue Jays have more championships

What in hells kitchen does that have to do with anything?

We have 6 Championships Vinny 6.. And the Sox were the first dynasty. Who cares really. By winning the 2004 championship we knock all Yankee fans over thier might horse that they rode on for years And constantly stuck it to us. OVER AND OVER.. Now that your in the mud its not pretty. Be a man and lick you wounds and stop crying. Its only been less than 2 years. BOO FREAKING HOO

[Vinnie4]

I disagree. I think he has tried one too m any times to take the short cut thru the woods and keeps running into dead ends. By signing all stars thinking that will bring the much need championship King George wants before he is sent to the passtures.
Time and time again he keeps shooting himself in the foot with the signs of older players who have little left in the tank and are injury prone. Letting players like Sorriano, Nick Johnson, Ted Lilly, Jose Contrea's Andy Pettie, walk from the so called destonation has hurt the Yankees in the long run. They have fallen off the path that made them such a good club with youth and a few key signings. Now its all about signing all stars in hope that they can bring one more for george. Not working. They brought in bad club house guys like Brown, Lofton, Johnson, Arod, the chemistry has been no exsistant for years now. Nobody on the team has fun. Its too serious and alot of pressure. Let the players be themselves and grow thier hair, let Damon be a caveman again. The players are to uptight.



HELLO!!!!!!! I have been saying that well before we ever won a championship. Go to page one of the Red Sox update and check the date. After putting up with the arrogance of yankee fans for all of our lives. 1918 being throw in our face over and over, Buckey Dent. Boone. It never ended Vinny. NEVER until 2004 and it was all put to rest. Now you cry and complain about us acting like arrogant yankee fans for 19 months. 19 freaking months and you act this way? BOO FREAKING HOO VINNY BOO HOO. Deal with it. We have for all of our lives. Now that you have to taste your own medicine it doesnt taste so good does it. Life has a funny way of sticking it right back at you. So Vinny. Right back at you! And please go genrelize me as all Red Sox fans. I am my own person and represnt me and only me.



Choked Win whatever. We stuck it to the Yankees and danced on thier holy ground they call Yankee stadium. We gave you a taste of the heartbreak we endurred countless of times. To see the faces of the Yankee stadium fans were pure joy. Sugar coat it all you want. We had the greatest comeback in baseball something that never been done.



What in hells kitchen does that have to do with anything?

We have 6 Championships Vinny 6.. And the Sox were the first dynasty. Who cares really. By winning the 2004 championship we knock all Yankee fans over thier might horse that they rode on for years And constantly stuck it to us. OVER AND OVER.. Now that your in the mud its not pretty. Be a man and lick you wounds and stop crying. Its only been less than 2 years. BOO FREAKING HOO

Hey genius, did I say 1 total championship, or 1 in 86 years? And yes, you're a smug little punk that gives Red Sox fans a bad name. In my area, it is a 50/50 split of Sox and Yankee fans, and not 1 of them tries to belittle the Yankees, or any other team, to make himself feel better. Around here, the rivalry is fun. Everyone is good natured about it. You're just an angry little man. Fenwayp and I go back and forth alot, but it is all in good humor. You try and make everything personal. Remember, it's just a game. If 2004 was the greatest moment in your life, you really need to get out more. Success breeds contempt, so hate on the Yankees all you like. It's envy, pure and simple.

You make it sound like everyone that left the Yankees got the boot, which is just wrong, and you know it. Let's use Pettite as an example. Yes, he walked from the Yankees. But why? Oh yeah, so he could be closer to family in Texas. Something the Yankees couldn't give him.

You like history so much robert, here is some history for ya. 1923, 1927, 1928, 1932, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1941, 1943, 1947, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1956, 1958, 1961, 1962, 1977, 1978, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000.

And I'd say the first dynasty was the 1906-1908 Chicago Cubs. Or maybe the 1910-1913 Philadelphia Athletics. But nice try, though.

[GOPATS]

Yankees Still Suck....Nuff said..

[ToightLikeATiger]

damn i was pretty impressed with Snyder last night. I thought going in "Oh god a guy who couldnt even perform decent for the Royals... gonna need 10 runs tonight to have a chance."

but he pitched above and beyong my expectaions. he has good stuff from what i saw. maybe he just didnt pitch well because his team was bad. im sure he isnt the savior or anything but he could be what Aaron Small was for the yankees last year.

atleast until Clement comes back (which kinda hoping he doesnt) or Wells comes back. I think Wells would be better then Clement coming back. Wells is experienced and can still pitch. Clement has more mental issues then Lowe every had and a dead arm.

now hopefully tonight the Sox can give Wakefield some run support. He should have a winning record easily but gets screwed all the time.

[Vinnie4]

Yankees Still Suck....Nuff said..
That was well thought out.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

I can't believe how good Tom Gordon looks this year.

Gordon > Farnsworth

[Vinnie4]

damn i was pretty impressed with Snyder last night. I thought going in "Oh god a guy who couldnt even perform decent for the Royals... gonna need 10 runs tonight to have a chance."

but he pitched above and beyong my expectaions. he has good stuff from what i saw. maybe he just didnt pitch well because his team was bad. im sure he isnt the savior or anything but he could be what Aaron Small was for the yankees last year.

atleast until Clement comes back (which kinda hoping he doesnt) or Wells comes back. I think Wells would be better then Clement coming back. Wells is experienced and can still pitch. Clement has more mental issues then Lowe every had and a dead arm.

now hopefully tonight the Sox can give Wakefield some run support. He should have a winning record easily but gets screwed all the time.

I agree on Clement. He seems gun shy now. He flinches on every ball hit.

[Tanner2126]

I can't believe how good Tom Gordon looks this year.

Gordon > Farnsworth

He's in the NL this year. BIG DIFFERENCE!

[Yukoner]

He's in the NL this year. BIG DIFFERENCE!

He also is cheaper, was already a Yankee, and proven.

Kyle Farnsworth to Georgie was like a fishing lure to a bass: Something shiny that he had to swallow up NOW.

I'd have the utmost in respect for Cashman and George if they decided to go younger and cheaper. They went younger, wilder, and more expensive.

[Mark Weber]

So Mark what is your point of pointing out that players come and go. You keep beating this drum? I find it pointless. It does not make the Yankees a better team this year. The managment has made countless of bad moves recently and its reflecting in no championships in recent years. You can keep pointing out past sucess but really. Does that make you feel better? I don't understand what your getting at?

My point is that the Boston Red Sox organization is a joke, and that players don't want to be a part of it. Your free agents leave, and your best prospects get traded away before they can leave on their own. A century of this has left Boston with six championships, and an embarrassing list of unbelievable players who left Boston in the rear-view mirror (Babe Ruth, Cy Young, Carlton Fisk, Wade Boggs, Roger Clemens, Fred Lynn, Tony Conigliaro, Tris Speaker to name a few). There's so little actual pride in Boston that you fail to honor the few players who stuck it out as career (or nearly career) Red Sox in Dwight Evans and Jim Rice. What didn't they do to deserve a number retirement?

The blundering moves of the Yankees have made are not paying off and all the Yankee greats you dust off and throw at me does not hide the fact the this years yankees suck. Both our teams have had injuries and thats part of the game.

This year's Yankees (who "suck" by your estimation) are only two games back in the East and have split the season series vs. Boston 5-5 (including wins in four of the last five games). I'm not a blind enough fan to claim that Boston's team "sucks", nor would I get too excited about a two-game division lead in mid-June. Then again, I haven't gone the last decade without a division title, so it might be hard to compare.

SOX injuries: Clement, Wells, Timlin, Crisp.
NYY injuries: Pavano, Small, Rivera, Chacon, Sheffield, Matsui, Jeter, Giambi, Posada, Crosby & Damon.

Yeah, you've been positively crippled. You make a real good point. :rolleyes:

I have a feeling Smoltz will be popping into the picture if the Braves continue to take a nose dive. I like what Lester brings to the table. Schilling is getting better, Beckett is having an outstanding season and has not been at top form. Papelbon is the best closer in the game today.

Smoltz will only get traded if he requests it, and I'm willing to bet he'll be a lifetime Brave. Some teams just keep their best players forever. Schilling is very strong and Lester's last start certainly was promising. Beckett's 5.09 ERA ranks him 36th in the American League, and he's given up 17 homers in 81 innings of work. He's racked up some wins but has pitched poorly for Boston thus far. Never mind that he's never thrown 200 innings in a season. Papelbon has had an unbelievable season so far.

That's how I see it. If you prefer not to dwell on Boston's embarrassing past, that's OK but doesn't that rule out tooting the 2004 championship horn?

[Mark Weber]

Boston fans - honest question here:

Why isn't Jim Rice's # retired in Boston?

[SmartassBoiler]

He's in the NL this year. BIG DIFFERENCE!

So he's only a dominating closer this year because he's in the NL? I remember him setting the record for consecutive saves while in Boston. Boston, last time I checked, is in the AL. He also compiled two great ~ 2.50 ERA seasons setting up Mariano Rivera, who plays for the Yankees. The Yankees...well they're in the AL as well.

Essentially trading Gordon for Farnsworth was a stupid idea. Farnsworth is a one trick pony and is NOT reliable from the years watching him pitch for the Cubs. Of course, this coming from a White Sox fan who's team's bullpen has been an absolute joke this year outside of Jenks. :o

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

I can't believe how good Tom Gordon looks this year.

Gordon > Farnsworth
Has nothing to do with Farnsworth.

Mo > Gordon. Therefore, goodbye Gordon (who vowed to be a closer).

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

Anyone else want to debate a non-debatable issue?

[Tanner2126]

Look at his stats. He didnt pitch like this for the Yankees. Also look at Clemans. Do you really think he would dominate the AL like he is dominating the NL?? I highly doubt it. The lineups are much different in the AL.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Anyone else want to debate a non-debatable issue?

Who in their right mind would want to have a debate with you? :p

26WorldSeries

http://www.bose.at/technologies/signal_processing/assets/images/hand_over_ears.jpg

[ToightLikeATiger]

This year's Yankees (who "suck" by your estimation) are only two games back in the East and own the season series vs. Boston 5-4 (including four straight wins).

actually mark the series is tied 5-5 and the Redsox won the last game vs Yankees.

so the only joke here is your information and arugment

[ToightLikeATiger]

here mark.. bought this for you since you seemed to need it.

http://images.hasbro.com/clue/images/clue_splash.gif

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

Who in their right mind would want to have a debate with you? :p

26WorldSeries

http://www.bose.at/technologies/signal_processing/assets/images/hand_over_ears.jpg
HEHE. I thought if I repeated myself 3 times someone would hear me roarrrrr! ;)

[robertbee]

Boston fans - honest question here:

Why isn't Jim Rice's # retired in Boston?
Mark Weber



I think the new owners may try and change this. Rice is stii working with the organization. he should be a hall of famer. Last year was a good chance for him.

The Sox don't retire numbers like Yankee fans giving out curtain calls in the 2nd inning for a tying home run.


The Red Sox policy on retiring uniform numbers is based on the following criteria:
• Election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame


Boston that you fail to honor the few players who stuck it out as career (or nearly career) Red Sox in Dwight Evans and Jim Rice. What didn't they do to deserve a number retirement?


read the paragraph above.


SOX injuries: Clement, Wells, Timlin, Crisp.
NYY injuries: Pavano, Small, Rivera, Chacon, Sheffield, Matsui, Jeter, Giambi, Posada, Crosby & Damon.

Yeah, you've been positively crippled. You make a real good point. :rolleyes:

Injuries? No excuse Mark that does not take away a healthy Arod, Jeter who seems to make the last out in cruical moments to end games. Unit? I suppose he's injured as well. Possada? Is he injured? What about Cano? Nice ground out with the bases loaded last night in the late inning. I bet he was injured. Maybe they should all tough'n up and be like Damon and show some guts. No Mark injuries have not hurt the team its the ineffectiveness of the heathy players that have come up short.

[Mark Weber]

So you have to be in the Hall of Fame to get your number retired in Boston? I never knew that. What's the source on that info? Will they retire numbers for Hall of Famers who got the hell out of Boston (Ruth, Speaker, Fisk, Young, Clemens, Boggs etc.)??

I agree with part of your rebuttal Bee, there are some established vets who haven't played up to expectation in New York this season (Randy Johnson, Kyle Farnsworth & Alex Rodriguez among them). Considering the M*A*S*H* unit of injuries I've listed, and your own belief that "the ineffectiveness of the heathy players that have come up short" please tell me why Boston only has a .500 record versus New York and a two-game lead in the standings. After all, "the Yankees suck" right? You would think the heart of those scrappy Beantown underdogs would have pulled away from the steroid-abusing Evil Empire millionaires sitting on their fat wallets...

While you're at it he's a brain teaser for ya - which player leads the American League in game-winning RBI this season? Fill in the blanks for the answer...

AL_X RODR_GU_Z

And Tiger, I fixed my statistical error up above - I missed the last game when I looked up the schedule. Feel free to chime in on the argument/discussion anytime, if you feel you're up to the task...

[robertbee]

Hey genius, did I say 1 total championship, or 1 in 86 years? And yes, you're a smug little punk that gives Red Sox fans a bad name. In my area, it is a 50/50 split of Sox and Yankee fans, and not 1 of them tries to belittle the Yankees, or any other team, to make himself feel better. Around here, the rivalry is fun. Everyone is good natured about it. You're just an angry little man. Fenwayp and I go back and forth alot, but it is all in good humor. You try and make everything personal. Remember, it's just a game. If 2004 was the greatest moment in your life, you really need to get out more. Success breeds contempt, so hate on the Yankees all you like. It's envy, pure and simple.

You make it sound like everyone that left the Yankees got the boot, which is just wrong, and you know it. Let's use Pettite as an example. Yes, he walked from the Yankees. But why? Oh yeah, so he could be closer to family in Texas. Something the Yankees couldn't give him.

You like history so much robert, here is some history for ya. 1923, 1927, 1928, 1932, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1941, 1943, 1947, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1956, 1958, 1961, 1962, 1977, 1978, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000.

And I'd say the first dynasty was the 1906-1908 Chicago Cubs. Or maybe the 1910-1913 Philadelphia Athletics. But nice try, though.

Very weak Vinny. Very Vinny and very predictable. fessacchione Saying Pettite left to be with his family is sweet Vinny. The Yankees dropped the ball on that. They had all the time to sign him but left him hanging

Good day.

[robertbee]

So you have to be in the Hall of Fame to get your number retired in Boston? I never knew that. What's the source on that info?
Mark Weber


Click here: Boston Red Sox : History : Red Sox Retired Numbers (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/history/retired_numbers.jsp)

Yankees are no better they use players and spit them out all for the name of world series championships. All they are are pawns on the chess board of baseaball. Slaves to the mighty dollar.
Dinner time

ps. please take notice on how to beat the Nat's. Its not that diificult.

[Yukoner]

So you have to be in the Hall of Fame to get your number retired in Boston? I never knew that. What's the source on that info? Will they retire numbers for Hall of Famers who got the hell out of Boston (Ruth, Speaker, Fisk, Young, Clemens, Boggs etc.)??

I agree with part of your rebuttal Bee, there are some established vets who haven't played up to expectation in New York this season (Randy Johnson, Kyle Farnsworth & Alex Rodriguez among them). Considering the M*A*S*H* unit of injuries I've listed, and your own belief that "the ineffectiveness of the heathy players that have come up short" please tell me why Boston only has a .500 record versus New York and a two-game lead in the standings. After all, "the Yankees suck" right? You would think the heart of those scrappy Beantown underdogs would have pulled away from the steroid-abusing Evil Empire millionaires sitting on their fat wallets...

While you're at it he's a brain teaser for ya - which player leads the American League in game-winning RBI this season? Fill in the blanks for the answer...

AL_X RODR_GU_Z

And Tiger, I fixed my statistical error up above - I missed the last game when I looked up the schedule. Feel free to chime in on the argument/discussion anytime, if you feel you're up to the task...

Where did you find those stats, Mark? I thought I had a pretty good grasp on the sabermetric and traditional statistical analysis, and I can't find anything that either refutes or backs your claim.

[Mark Weber]

The Game-Winning RBI stat is courtesy of ESPN's Gary Thorne from last night's Yankees/Phillies broadcast.

[robertbee]

Look at his stats. He didnt pitch like this for the Yankees. Also look at Clemans. Do you really think he would dominate the AL like he is dominating the NL?? I highly doubt it. The lineups are much different in the AL.
Tanner2126



Clemens dominates no matter what league he is in. I am sure he would look better in a Yankee uniform right now than The Big Unit. Would you rather had Mussina right now or Clemens? Clemens is my answer.

[Mark Weber]

Click here: Boston Red Sox : History : Red Sox Retired Numbers (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/history/retired_numbers.jsp)

Yankees are no better they use players and spit them out all for the name of world series championships. All they are are pawns on the chess board of baseaball. Slaves to the mighty dollar.

You've got a point Bee. Other than Joe DiMaggio, Lou Gehrig, Whitey Ford, Ron Guidry, Don Mattingly, Phil Rizzuto, Bill ****ey, Thurman Munson, Roy White, Frank Crosetti, Bobby Richardson, Mickey Mantle, Tommy Henrich, Mel Stottlemyre & Earle Combs you make a pretty convincing argument.

Hey, does the Arroyo-for-Pena trade go down as a Boston's best-ever move, since it got rid of one career Red Sox player and greased the skids for Nixon's exit as well?

ps. please take notice on how to beat the Nat's. Its not that diificult.

Duly noted. Want some tips on how to beat Minnesota & Toronto??

[Mark Weber]

I agree with part of your rebuttal Bee, there are some established vets who haven't played up to expectation in New York this season (Randy Johnson, Kyle Farnsworth & Alex Rodriguez among them). Considering the M*A*S*H* unit of injuries I've listed, and your own belief that "the ineffectiveness of the heathy players that have come up short" please tell me why Boston only has a .500 record versus New York and a two-game lead in the standings. After all, "the Yankees suck" right? You would think the heart of those scrappy Beantown underdogs would have pulled away from the steroid-abusing Evil Empire millionaires sitting on their fat wallets...

Feel free to tackle this question anytime...

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

LOL, see how you got ignored, Yukoner? What did I tell you?

[robertbee]

Young Guns Locked and Loaded
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/BDD_CH_MD_6.20_bgbc.jpg
(Boston Globe Staff Photo / Barry Chin)
Extra Bases: Hansen, Delcarmen Get Go-Ahead in Sox 'Pen (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/)

[robertbee]

Hey, does the Arroyo-for-Pena trade go down as a Boston's best-ever move, since it got rid of one career Red Sox player and greased the skids for Nixon's exit as well?

Jurys still out on that. I would have loved to have Arroyo still here. He was following Derek Lowes ways of womanizing and partying which the Sox owners don't like. Lowe was bring girls around to events while he was still married. Both are natorious for reaping the young ladies of Northeasten Univesity. If you would like I can post some of the pictures of Arroyo and some college babes from the dorm room. I dont have a problem with them using womand like shake and bake bags. Its the owners who want to keep a family image. I like collage girls as well.

Pena is insurance for when Mannys contract runs out and if Nixon asks for the bank.
alot of potential with Wily Mo.




I've listed, and your own belief that "the ineffectiveness of the heathy players that have come up short" please tell me why Boston only has a .500 record versus New York and a two-game lead in the standings


Blue Jays Blue Jays Blue jays. Leftys leftys lefys. the bridge between the starters and the closer (Timlin and Pap's) have been ineffective. Rudy, Riske, Tavarese have all sucked as well as Foulke in the term we know as yankee sucking. They have not gotten the job done. Help is on the way from the farm club as you can see in the picture above "locked and loaded" We have a dangerous team and when the Sox start playing good baseball you will see. Enjoy the hoovering awound for now. And you short season stats. The Sox are a better team, more balanced and proven winners.
Yankees? They just suck. :D

You act like the Sox should have a 10 game lead?
It was the Yankees favored to win, it was the Yankees who were suppose to put up the greatest offensive numbers since Murder's row, The 52 sox and the Shock&awe sox of recent years. The Yankees looked great on paper the start of the season but they are playing as strong as paper. The paper is getting soggy and falling apart. FAST. with disgracful loses to the Royals and Nats it just show what your team is made of. A bunch of aging all stars with no heart. A shell of a once great Dynasty. If you want to dance to the music you got to pay the fiddler and its time to pay up Web. When you deal in the bussiness of evil doings the Devil always wins. The fall of the Evil Empire and demise of the Yankees has started since Clemens came and gone with what he needed. A ring to add to his legacy that he got on his '"lay over" with the Yankees. As do most players who think they may have a shot at a ring by going to NY. the *****s of baseball.

[Vinnie4]

Jurys still out on that. I would have loved to have Arroyo still here. He was following Derek Lowes ways of womanizing and partying which the Sox owners don't like. Lowe was bring girls around to events while he was still married. Both are natorious for reaping the young ladies of Northeasten Univesity. If you would like I can post some of the pictures of Arroyo and some college babes from the dorm room. I dont have a problem with them using womand like shake and bake bags. Its the owners who want to keep a family image. I like collage girls as well.

Pena is insurance for when Mannys contract runs out and if Nixon asks for the bank.
alot of potential with Wily Mo.





Blue Jays Blue Jays Blue jays. Leftys leftys lefys. the bridge between the starters and the closer (Timlin and Pap's) have been ineffective. Rudy, Riske, Tavarese have all sucked as well as Foulke in the term we know as yankee sucking. They have not got the job done. Help is on the way from the farm club as you can see in the picture below "locked and loaded" We have a dangerous team and when the Sox start playing good baseball you will see. Enjoy the hoovering awound for now. And you short season stats. The Sox are a better team, more balanced and proven winners.
Yankees? They just suck. :D

All we hear from you when you talk about the Sox is if, when soon, etc. How long are we gonna have to wait? Oh yeah, Pauley, Lester, Delcarmen, and Hansen were all brought up because of injury, so you can't count them.:rolleyes: Patch players

[Vinnie4]

Where did you find those stats, Mark? I thought I had a pretty good grasp on the sabermetric and traditional statistical analysis, and I can't find anything that either refutes or backs your claim.
I'm listening to the Yankees game on the radio, and they said that according to the Elias Sports Bureau, A-Rod has 4 go ahead RBI after the seventh inning, which ranks him second in the AL. 2 players are tied for first place with 5.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Mark ignores facts that dont favor him or the yankees... thats why i dont bother arguing with him.

his only comeback is "Boston is a Rest Stop"

which has nothing to do with 2006 and the fact the Redsox are 2 games in first place

[robertbee]

All we hear from you when you talk about the Sox is if, when soon, etc. How long are we gonna have to wait? Oh yeah, Pauley, Lester, Delcarmen, and Hansen were all brought up because of injury, so you can't count them.:rolleyes: Patch players
Vincent


Gee I wonder where you got that from. Vinny.try and be original. Hansen and Delcarmen are up becuase of ineffectivness. Please tell me who is injured that they are replacing? Don't you have a mind of your own? Use it.

[Yukoner]

LOL, see how you got ignored, Yukoner? What did I tell you?

No problem. It was a simple question, and if I can't find any statistical proof, I'll just assume it came from Michael Kay's imagination.

[robertbee]

All we hear from you when you talk about the Sox is if, when soon, etc. How long are we gonna have to wait? Oh yeah, Pauley, Lester, Delcarmen, and Hansen were all brought up because of injury, so you can't count them.:rolleyes: Patch players
Vincent


Gee I wonder where you got that from. Vinny.try and be original. Hansen and Delcarmen are up becuase of ineffectivness. Please tell me who is injured that they are replacing? Don't you have a mind of your own? Use it.


how long do we hav to wait?
Vinsta


you have been waiting a century. You can wait a little longer.

[robertbee]

All we hear from you when you talk about the Sox is if, when soon, etc. How long are we gonna have to wait? Oh yeah, Pauley, Lester, Delcarmen, and Hansen were all brought up because of injury, so you can't count them.:rolleyes: Patch players
Vincent


Gee I wonder where you got that from. Vinny.try and be original. Hansen and Delcarmen are up becuase of ineffectivness. Please tell me who is injured that they are replacing? Don't you have a mind of your own? Use it.


how long do we hav to wait?
Vinsta


you have been waiting a century. You can wait a little longer.

[Mark Weber]

LOL, see how you got ignored, Yukoner? What did I tell you?

Aside from my response, how exactly did I ignore Yukoner's question?

[Vinnie4]

Gee I wonder where you got that from. Vinny.try and be original. Hansen and Delcarmen are up becuase of ineffectivness. Please tell me who is injured that they are replacing? Don't you have a mind of your own? Use it.



you have been waiting a century. You can wait a little longer.
Wells, Clement. I'm sorry, I guess you're the only one allowed to use weak, pathetic arguments. I've been waiting a century? Silly me, all this time I thought a century was 100 years, not 6.

[Mark Weber]

Mark ignores facts that dont favor him or the yankees... thats why i dont bother arguing with him.

his only comeback is "Boston is a Rest Stop"

which has nothing to do with 2006 and the fact the Redsox are 2 games in first place

I tend to think you don't argue with me because you don't want the Robertbee beatdown treatment.

Gary Thorne said A-Rod had the most game-winning RBI in the American League during yesterday's nationally broadcast Yankees/Phillies game. I don't know where he got that stat specifically, but I think a national baseball broadcaster is a pretty reputable source.

I've got plenty of comebacks, but Boston being a Rest Stop, a team that hardly ever wins it all, and a franchise with a long history of racism are my three main reasons for pitying their fans. I don't think you have a team worth rooting for.

I'm pleased that the Yankees have kept as close as they have considering the massive injury toll they've handled thus far. I'm a diehard Yankees fan, but I'm also a realist and unless they pick up some starting pitching and a decent outfield bat I doubt if they've got enough to win the title this year.

I don't think that everything my team has ever done was perfect, that we're better without every player who's left the team, or that every player on the team now is brilliant, or that every prospect that gets called up is the savior, or that any of our rivals "suck" because I said so. That's just stupid.

[robertbee]

a team that hardly ever wins it all, and a franchise with a long history of racism are my three main reasons for pitying their fans. I don't think you have a team worth rooting for
Mark Weber


mark your arguments are of the past. We are living in the future. So do you think the current Red Sox owners are racist?

What does that have to do with the 2006 Red Sox?

We have won 6 championship. IF you want to call that hardly ever winning?
.
We won in 2004 when was the last time the Yankees won?

You don't think Ortiz, Manny, Schilling, Papelbon, Lowell, Nixon, Beckett Coco, Yuk, Tek are not worth rooting for?

Why does you company make sportpicks or Red Sox players. Seems like alot of them? Do they not sell? Why would they be worth making if they are not worth routing for?

You keep bringing up racism. This country has a pretty bad history of it that still goes on today. Do you pitty your country as well because that is much much bigger than a baseball team. It was one guy. Yawkey. Pity him if you want but please dont pity me or any other Red Sox fan that cheers for his or her team. Using the racism card is trashy and fits well in this thread you started I may add.

Got to run but your #2 pitcher is looking like he may just get a lose. Way to go Big Mess and Bulwinkle the Moose.

Have a good night I am doing to go get a hamburger at Sambo's we still have then here in Boston.:rolleyes:

[BlakChamber]

mark your arguments are of the past. We are living in the future
...
We won in 2004 when was the last time the Yankees won?

Anyone else find that funny?

[ToightLikeATiger]

i laugh at Mark making bashing the Redsox because of past racism....last time i checked the Yankees werent jumping out of their seats signing black players either.

actually during that time period who was the great yankees black star? i cant remember his name. oh yeah thats right there was none.

Yankees were the same way as the Redsox. it was that era. it was bad but it happened.

but you cant come out and bash the Redsox and not look at your own teams history. The Yankees were just as racist.

[Mark Weber]

i laugh at Mark making bashing the Redsox because of past racism....last time i checked the Yankees werent jumping out of their seats signing black players either.

actually during that time period who was the great yankees black star? i cant remember his name. oh yeah thats right there was none.

Yankees were the same way as the Redsox. it was that era. it was bad but it happened.

but you cant come out and bash the Redsox and not look at your own teams history. The Yankees were just as racist.

http://www.vintagecardtraders.com/virtual/60topps/60topps-065.jpg

The Yankees drafted Elston Howard in 1950 (three years after Jackie Robinson joined the Brooklyn Dodgers), and he debuted at Yankee Stadium in 1955. He played in nine consecutive All-Star Games and won the A.L. MVP award in 1963. He won four World Series with the Yankees (1956, 1958, 1961 and 1962). Yeah, they retired his #32 as well.

http://users.rowan.edu/~fleischner/Yankees/RetiredNumbers/ElstonHoward.jpg

That's why you don't argue with me Toight - it's just too painful. Your options now:

1. Apologize in your next post
2. Plead ignorance
3. Pretend it never happened

When Pedro retires and gets into the Hall of Fame, do you think Boston will retire his number?

[Tanner2126]

Mark, you put him in a very toight spot! HAHA!

[Vinnie4]

Anyone else find that funny?
He usually contradicts himself from post to post. I guess he figured he'd save a little time and do it all at once.

[Yukoner]

What's all this junk about retiring numbers? Does it somehow prove or disprove anything at all?

Of all the arguments to bring up, this is by far the lamest.

[Vinnie4]

What's all this junk about retiring numbers? Does it somehow prove or disprove anything at all?

Of all the arguments to bring up, this is by far the lamest.
robertbee thinks the Yankees are too free with retiring numbers. He believes they retire just about anyone's number.

[Yukoner]

robertbee thinks the Yankees are too free with retiring numbers. He believes they retire just about anyone's number.

I'm leaning towards bee on this one. The less retired the better.

[Vinnie4]

I'm leaning towards bee on this one. The less retired the better.
I understand your point, but the Yankees have a much deeper history than most teams, and many great players.

[Mark Weber]

What's all this junk about retiring numbers? Does it somehow prove or disprove anything at all?

Of all the arguments to bring up, this is by far the lamest.

It grew out of me noticing how few players spend their entire careers in Boston. The Red Sox have had 30 Hall of Fame players wear their uniform over the years, yet only three of them have their numbers retired in Fenway (Doerr, Williams & Yaz).

[Mark Weber]

mark your arguments are of the past. We are living in the future. So do you think the current Red Sox owners are racist?

I think you're the only one living in the future Bee - you know, where Lester, Delcarmen, Hansen and Papelbon are all 20-game winners. I wasn't aware that there was some sort of rule on this thread about what to trash talk on. Giving the disappointing and sometimes embarrassing overall history of the Red Sox, it's one of the easier things for Yankees fans to pick on. I've got no reason to believe that Boston's current ownership has racist tendencies. They seem content to trade away players of all races and nationalities.

What does that have to do with the 2006 Red Sox?

You can look at my Red Sox notes as one big discussion, or separate out my jabs at the 2006 Sox as you wish. I think my only stated points about the 2006 Sox are that Beckett has pitched poorly (and will likely get hurt) and been an unprofessional jerk on two occasions, that Ortiz's "clutch" numbers and his overall batting average have really taken a dive this season, and that dealing away Arroyo looks like it was a colossal mistake.

We have won 6 championship. If you want to call that hardly ever winning?

It's true that your six titles (five as the Red Sox, one as the "Pilgrims") make Boston tied for the fourth-most World Series wins:

1. New York Yankees (26 titles)
2. St. Louis Cardinals & Oakland/K.C./Philadelphia Athletics (9 titles each)
4. Boston Red Sox/Pilgrims & Brooklyn/L.A. Dodgers (6 titles each)

If you go by average (leveling out the Boston dynasty of the early 1900's with their enormous drought since) the Red Sox/Pilgrims win a World Series every 17 years. Can you imagine the party in 2021? :)

It's also true that since Boston won the last title of their dynasty (1918 - the year they sold Babe Ruth to the Yankees) these teams have won more titles than the Red Sox:

Toronto (2 titles)
Baltimore (3 titles)
Detroit (4 titles)
Minnesota (3 titles)
Cleveland (2 titles)
NY Mets (2 titles)
Florida (2 titles)
Atlanta (2 titles)
Cincinnati (5 titles)
Pittsburgh (4 titles)
L.A. Dodgers (6 titles)
S.F. Giants (6 titles)

I guess it's clearest to say (titlewise) that Boston was a once-proud franchise that has really struggled over the last 88 seasons.

We won in 2004 when was the last time the Yankees won?

I thought "we are living in the future?" Is it only OK to reference the past when you do it to help float your sinking arguments? For the record, the Yankees' last title was in 2000, when their World Series victory over the Mets gave them four titles in the last five seasons.

You don't think Ortiz, Manny, Schilling, Papelbon, Lowell, Nixon, Beckett Coco, Yuk, Tek are not worth rooting for?

I can't say I've got any reason to root against Lowell, Nixon, Coco, or Youkilis other than the jerseys they're currently renting. I probably won't root against any of them when they leave Boston.

I think it's sad that the most-revered moment of Jason Varitek's Boston career is when he sucker-punched a Yankee in the face. Being defined by a dirty play against a rival team isn't how you want to be remembered. He's a better-paid Michael Barrett.

Ortiz seems like a great teammate, and there's no denying the skills that made him the runner-up for the A.L. MVP award in 2005. I wish he cared enough to improve his defense though, and not be content with being half a player.

Ramirez keeps asking out of Boston but the monstrous contract Boston signed him to makes him pretty-much untradeable. Remember when he went public with his unhappiness as a Red Sox player to Sports Illustrated, then refused to play on a scheduled day off following an injury to soon-to-be-ex-Red Sox OF Trot Nixon? I know, that's just "Manny being Manny." If he played anywhere else you'd think he was a loser too.

I've always liked Schilling as a player, and I'm sorry the Yankees weren't one of the five teams he played for in his career. Can you imagine if Boston had held onto him and all his 200 wins had come in a Red Sox uniform?

Despite Beckett's well-established health issues, he's had a pair of incidents since becoming a Red Sox player where he's screamed obscenities at opposing players for interpreted slights (Ryan Howard & Shea Hillenbrand). Real classy Josh.

Why does you company make sportpicks or Red Sox players. Seems like alot of them? Do they not sell? Why would they be worth making if they are not worth routing for?

We make a lot of Red Sox figures as there are a lot of Red Sox fans out there and the Boston figures always sell well. Is your argument that: Lots of Sports Picks = nationally popular = worth rooting for? Do you see where I'm going with this?

You keep bringing up racism. This country has a pretty bad history of it that still goes on today. Do you pitty your country as well because that is much much bigger than a baseball team. It was one guy. Yawkey. Pity him if you want but please dont pity me or any other Red Sox fan that cheers for his or her team. Using the racism card is trashy and fits well in this thread you started I may add.

From a cosmic perspective, there is some pity but probably more accurately described as shame for how long open racism was accepted in the United States and how much of it still exists under the radar today. I think it's unfair to those it effected (and still effects) to ignore it or pretend it isn't still relevant. It's the combination of the Red Sox enormous title drought, their embarrasing history under a racist owner, and their century-old penchant for trading away their beloved players that make me feel they aren't a franchise worth rooting for.

Got to run but your #2 pitcher is looking like he may just get a lose. Way to go Big Mess and Bulwinkle the Moose.

I love how Randy Johnson (8-6, 5.21 ERA) and Mike Mussina (8-3, 3.42 ERA) are struggling enough to earn joke nicknames from you, but Josh Beckett (8-3, 5.09 ERA) "is having an outstanding season and has not been at top form."

Have a good night I am doing to go get a hamburger at Sambo's we still have then here in Boston.:rolleyes:

How's your burger taste now bee?

[robertbee]

I think you're the only one living in the future Bee - you know, where Lester, Delcarmen, Hansen and Papelbon are all 20-game winners
Mark Weber


Amen. Let it be said, let it be written.


They seem content to trade away players of all races and nationalities
Mark Weber


As do the Yankees. So freaking what? What is your point? In sports trades are made for finacial reasons, to better the team. Is it a sin to trade away a player?
You act all high and mighty about it. Why?


You can look at my Red Sox notes as one big discussion, or separate out my jabs at the 2006 Sox as you wish. I think my only stated points about the 2006 Sox are that Beckett has pitched poorly (and will likely get hurt) and been an unprofessional jerk on two occasions, that Ortiz's "clutch" numbers and his overall batting average have really taken a dive this season, and that dealing away Arroyo looks like it was a colossal mistake.




think my only stated points about the 2006 Sox are that Beckett has pitched poorly (and will likely get hurt) and been an unprofessional jerk on two occasions, that Ortiz's "clutch" numbers and his overall batting average have really taken a dive this season, and that dealing away Arroyo looks like it was a colossal mistake.

I think you're the only one living in the future Bee



Welcome to the future Web. Didn't expect to see you here. :rolleyes:

It's also true that since Boston won the last title of their dynasty (1918 - the year they sold Babe Ruth to the Yankees) these teams have won more titles than the Red Sox:

Toronto (2 titles)
Baltimore (3 titles)
Detroit (4 titles)
Minnesota (3 titles)
Cleveland (2 titles)
NY Mets (2 titles)
Florida (2 titles)
Atlanta (2 titles)
Cincinnati (5 titles)
Pittsburgh (4 titles)
L.A. Dodgers (6 titles)
S.F. Giants (6 titles)


And what does that have to do with the price of gas? You stated the Sox hardly ever win? I corrected you and said they won 6 titles. So you show me teams that won championships as well? Whats that have to do with the price of gas? Good for those teams that won.I find that pointless



If you go by average (leveling out the Boston dynasty of the early 1900's with their enormous drought since) the Red Sox/Pilgrims win a World Series every 17 years. Can you imagine the party in 2021? :)

I think I retired around then. Hope to party my arse off in style with a Championship. That will be sweet. Thanks for giving me something to lok forward too.

Cheers!


I thought "we are living in the future?" Is it only OK to reference the past when you do it to help float your sinking arguments? For the record, the Yankees' last title was in 2000, when their World Series victory over the Mets gave them four titles in the last five seasons


No Web I am trying to get you to the current state. You keep going back into the past with you stats, your racism, and your holding onto the glory days since you team sucks and does not have a chance in hell to win anything this year. Or in any of thier recent World Series. Always coming up short.



I think it's sad that the most-revered moment of Jason Varitek's Boston career is when he sucker-punched a Yankee in the face. Being defined by a dirty play against a rival team isn't how you want to be remembered. He's a better-paid Michael Barrett.


A dirty play. Thats your take on it. You know as well as I do what happened. Adog got hit by a curve ball and mouthed off to Bronson. Tek told him to go to first. What does he do. F U FU very classy. If it was me I would have buried his arse in the ground right there. Arod is a pos in my opionin. You are the only one I have ever heard call Tek a dirtry player. He is well respected in the league. Ask your paper captain and he will tell you. Dirty players? Karim Garcia a true Yankee maybe you should start a petition to get his number retired,



Ortiz seems like a great teammate, and there's no denying the skills that made him the runner-up for the A.L. MVP award in 2005. I wish he cared enough to improve his defense though, and not be content with being half a player.


Seems like? He is. Another shot at Ortiz. It must kill you that he destroys the Yankees and knocked your team out of 2004. I pity you. He had sone fine in iterleague play. We are a better team with him as a DH. Whats that have to do with the price of gas.



Ramirez keeps asking out of Boston but the monstrous contract Boston signed him to makes him pretty-much untradeable. Remember when he went public with his unhappiness as a Red Sox player to Sports Illustrated, then refused to play on a scheduled day off following an injury to soon-to-be-ex-Red Sox OF Trot Nixon? I know, that's just "Manny being Manny." If he played anywhere else you'd think he was a loser too


Only in the Bronx. they field losers, drug abusers, criminals, liars and cheaters. No wonder they wear pinstripes. Maybe they can get Munson to fly the team plane.


Despite Beckett's well-established health issues, he's had a pair of incidents since becoming a Red Sox player where he's screamed obscenities at opposing players for interpreted slights (Ryan Howard & Shea Hillenbrand). Real classy Josh.

Immature I call it. He still needs alot to learn. Thick headed. With a little guidence he shoudl be fine. I just think you resent him becasue he beat the Yankkees in the World Series. What a stud he was in that series.



I love how Randy Johnson (8-6, 5.21 ERA) and Mike Mussina (8-3, 3.42 ERA) are struggling enough to earn joke nicknames from you, but Josh Beckett (8-3, 5.09 ERA) "is having an outstanding season and has not been at top form


Yeah right. They pitched like bums the last 2 nights. Come to think of it. They are bums.




How's your burger taste now bee?


I didn't go into Sambo's No crackers working. :rolleyes:

[robertbee]

Hey Web. Its not a rest area? Its a destination? Here are some numbers the Yankees should consider retiring and these are active players today.

Mark Bellhorn
Armando Benitez
Aaron Boone
Joe Borowski
Tony Clark
Brandon Claussen
Jose Contreras
David Dellucci
Alan Embree
Tom Gordon
Todd Greene
Jason Grimsley
Brad Halsey
Chris Hammond
Orlando Hernandez
D'Angelo Jimenez
Nick Johnson
Steve Karsay
Randy Keisler
Matt Lawton
Ricky Ledee
Travis Lee
Jon Lieber
Ted Lilly
Esteban Loaiza
Kenny Lofton
Mike Lowell
Dan Miceli
Terry Mulholland
Dioner Navarro
Jeff Nelson
Andy Pettitte
Juan Rivera
Felix Rodriguez
Kenny Rogers
Ruben Sierra
J.T. Snow
Alfonso Soriano
Russ Springer
Mike Stanton
Marcus Thames
Javier Vazquez
Mike Vento
Jose Vizcaino
David Weathers
Jeff Weaver
David Wells
Jake Westbrook
Rondell White
Bob Wickman
Chris Widger
Todd Williams
Jay Witasick
Tony Womack

I wonder if they all got curtain calls as well

[ToightLikeATiger]

Mark you did nothing to me with your post... i just set you up for this one...


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d2/Pumpsie_Green_1960_Topps_317.jpg/275px-Pumpsie_Green_1960_Topps_317.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumpsie_Green

so each team had a black player.

here is a list of black players (1st ones) and their teams

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_first_black_Major_League_Baseball_players_by_team_and_date


so the way i see it Yankees 1 black player. Redsox 1 black player. still the same Mark.

So keep saying the Redsox are a racist franchise. Yankees are too. They did the same thing. Just their owner wasnt as publice as Yawkey.

Oh btw just in case you didnt know... its the year 2006 and the Redsox have had many great black ball players since Yawkey died in 1976. So the racism argument still doesnt hold water. The Redsox own was a racist like many others during segregation times.

for once Mark id like to see you stick to on the field observations from this season.