OFFICIAL Yankees vs. Red Sox trash talking thread

[ToightLikeATiger]

Mark, you put him in a very toight spot! HAHA!

nope i set him up to further my argument.... i find it funny that Mark thought he was ahead in the battle for just a split second. then i pull the rug right out from him

[robertbee]

Good job tonight. :D You got Mr Stats with his own game. Off to bed. Have a good moring all. Sox are heating up! SWEET!

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

Seems like Sox fans are the worse of the bunch. My co-worker went last night to the Phils game and I qoute: "Man, those Yankee fans are so much nicer than those awful Sox fans we saw earlier in the season. They dressed nicer, spoke better, and were friendlier. They would rib us but out of good fun. The Sox fans were down right loud, mean, and offensive."

[Mark Weber]

Mark you did nothing to me with your post... i just set you up for this one...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d2/Pumpsie_Green_1960_Topps_317.jpg/275px-Pumpsie_Green_1960_Topps_317.jpg

So you "set me up" by referencing Pumpsie Green eleven days after I did (see Page 9, post #337)?? Try to keep up next time.

Your post asked who the great black Yankees star was from that era. I educated you about Elston Howard. Apparently you went to Wikipedia and decided to learn some about your own favorite franchise - about how Pumpsie Green was called up in July of 1959 (four years after Howard joined the Yankees) to fill an injury hole and made Boston the last franchise in Major League Baseball to integrate. Good for you!

so the way i see it Yankees 1 black player. Redsox 1 black player. still the same Mark.

There's something fundamentally wrong about the "way you see it."

http://www.thedeadballera.com/Cards/SimpsonHarry1958Topps.jpg

Is it still the same now Tiger? Two players to one, and Howard debuting four years earlier?

So keep saying the Redsox are a racist franchise. Yankees are too. They did the same thing. Just their owner wasnt as publice as Yawkey.Oh btw just in case you didnt know... its the year 2006 and the Redsox have had many great black ball players since Yawkey died in 1976. So the racism argument still doesnt hold water. The Redsox own was a racist like many others during segregation times.

Again, reference post #337 for more from this article:

" Larry Lucchino, president and CEO of the Red Sox, and part of the new ownership that took over the team in February, acknowledges that along with the team's positive traditions, the club's history has included "an undeniable legacy of racial intolerance."

"You can't grow up in America as a sports fan and not recognize the role that baseball played both negatively and positively in the racial history of America," Lucchino says. "And the fact that it took until 1959 for Pumpsie Green to integrate the Sox infield speaks volumes."

I've never claimed the current ownership or management was racist in any way, just that the pronounced history of racism under the Yawkey ownership group still stains the franchise. Don't believe me? Just head on over to Fenway Park - it's just up the road on YAWKEY WAY.

for once Mark id like to see you stick to on the field observations from this season.

Oh, I'm sure you would. Wanna give me your spin on Beckett's embarassing on-field tirades, Ortiz's overrated numbers, or the Arroyo-for-Pena deal? Or you can just declare victory if you don't want to have the discussion.

[Tanner2126]

This is the funniest thread ever.

[Mark Weber]

It's kinda like tetherball.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Mark you really arent worth the time.... im done dealing with you after this post on you irrelevant issues. its obvious you just cant handle being wrong. and you have to use childish tactics to make yourself feel better. if you wanna talk 2006 baseball thats fine. i will leave you with these comments to answer the issues you brought up.

its 2006. June 21st to be exact. and the Redsox are in 1st place of the AL East by 2 games.

btw the Arroyo/Pena deal looks bad now yes. But Pena is young and has raw power. He still has a bright future even though he has had a wrist injury all this year. Personally i miss Arroyo because he was a good guy and a decent #4 or #5 starter.

I also know that Jon Lester is now up with the team. The pitching staff although missing Clement and Wells is looking good right now. Im sure if Clement or Wells dont come back healthy the Redsox will be shopping for another starter.

Also if you think Ortiz is overrated you just dont have a clue about baseball. take off your Yankees goggles and like the game of baseball for a moment.

Ortiz's numbers this year are very good. his batting average is down but he still has the power numbers. oh yeah plus he spent the month of May (his slumping month) playing through a knee injury. He is healthy now and his average is starting to climb.

Ortiz will bat .280 or .290. hit 40+ homers and drive in 120-140 runs like normal. He will also continue to get clutch hits to help the Redsox win. If thats overrated then everyone in baseball should strive to be overrated.

As for Beckett...whats so embarrassing? Cause he gets pumped up. He pumps his fist after a big out? Sorry to tell you but this isnt the first pitcher to do this. Some of the all time greats did it. Its just emotion. There is nothing wrong with it. Nothing embarrassing at all.

As for Beckett's pitching this year. He has been inconsistant. He is still just a thrower right now. He rely's on his fastball too much. its a top notch fastball but he needs to locate it better. he also needs to work in his other pitches better. He is only 25 and still has time to learn. He has already proven he can win big games (we know you knwo that too Mark. probably the reason you hate him so much eh?). He will learn how to pitch and be even better because of it.

Also dont forget Mark that one of your Yankee pitchers... Randy Johnson does the same fist pump stuff and shows emotion while pitching as well. Is there bashing about that going on? No. I dont mind that stuff at all. It shows you care about your team and performance.

You gotta have a passion for the game. I know its considered more "old school" to do stuff like pump your fist after big outs, throwing inside to back hitters off the plate, planting one on a batters butt in retaliation. but thats how baseball use to be played. There is nothing wrong with it at all.

[Mark Weber]

As do the Yankees. So freaking what? What is your point? In sports trades are made for finacial reasons, to better the team. Is it a sin to trade away a player? You act all high and mighty about it. Why?

I act high and mighty about it because this is the Yankees/Red Sox trash talking thread and I'm a Yankees fan. My team has a long and storied history that includes nearly two-dozen career Yankees who made serious contributions to 26 World Series Championships. Boston has a history of trading good players away or watching them leave via free agency. Historically, players don't stay in Boston. I don't know exactly WHY that is, but it has left Sox fans with memories of one title in 88 years and very few ballplayers they can truly call their own (Ted, Yaz, Doerr, Rice & Greenwell). I think that's sad.

And what does that have to do with the price of gas? You stated the Sox hardly ever win? I corrected you and said they won 6 titles. So you show me teams that won championships as well? Whats that have to do with the price of gas? Good for those teams that won.I find that pointless

It's true that I didn't realize Boston was tied for fourth on the all-time World Series win list - that's better than I realized. It's also true that the Red Sox suffered through one of the longest title droughts in the history of professional sports. Since 1918 (as far as winning it all goes) Boston has been an abject failure. That's my point.

You keep going back into the past with you stats, your racism, and your holding onto the glory days since you team sucks and does not have a chance in hell to win anything this year. Or in any of thier recent World Series. Always coming up short.

Yet when New York took two of three in Fenway to close the season and secure their tenth straight division title last fall all you wanted to talk about was 2004. How do you want it bee? Maybe you should make a separate trash talking thread where we only talk about what's happening right now? You don't seem to care much for talking about the past, UNLESS it's 2004.

A dirty play. Thats your take on it. You know as well as I do what happened. Adog got hit by a curve ball and mouthed off to Bronson. Tek told him to go to first. What does he do. F U FU very classy. If it was me I would have buried his arse in the ground right there. Arod is a pos in my opionin. You are the only one I have ever heard call Tek a dirtry player. He is well respected in the league. Ask your paper captain and he will tell you.

I didn't defend A-Rod at the time and I don't defend him now. I think that he overreacted, and I don't codone screaming obscenities at opposing players. He escalated the situation unnecessarily. As did Varitek when he chose to change the verbal altercation into a physical one by cheap-shotting A-Rod in the face. Since you post that photo time and again, I'm sure you thought it was awesome. Why is Jeter a "paper captain?" Is it how he plays hurt, dives into the stands, and regularly comes up big in the postseason? More than anything, I'd love to hear your explanation on this, 'cause I think you've got nothing and it's just another "Yankees Suck" platitude you can't back up.

It must kill you that he destroys the Yankees and knocked your team out of 2004. I pity you. He had sone fine in iterleague play. We are a better team with him as a DH.

Ortiz does murder the Yankees regularly - and I wish Cashman had followed George's advice and signed him as a free agent when Minnesota let him go. I agree with you - Boston is a better team with him at DH. Last year he was the second-worst fielding first baseman in all of baseball - don't you remember us going through this a few months ago? Thanks Arizona rookie Conor Jackson for keeping Ortiz from being the worst-fielding first baseman in all of baseball.

Only in the Bronx. they field losers, drug abusers, criminals, liars and cheaters. No wonder they wear pinstripes. Maybe they can get Munson to fly the team plane.

Losers: every Sox team from 1918-2003, and also the 2005 squad
Drug abusers: Dennis Eckersley & Butch Hobson
Criminals: Wil Cordero
Liars: Wade Boggs
Cheaters: Jose Canseco & Billy Hatcher

It's pretty easy to drop those labels on any team you want. What's not easy is to take a shot at a guy who died in a plane crash. An all-time low cheapshot even for a trash talking thread. Were you wearing your Varitek jersey when you wrote that?

Immature I call it. He still needs alot to learn. Thick headed. With a little guidence he shoudl be fine.

Here's the key difference between you and me as fans bee. When a 28-year-old A-Rod screams obscenities at opposing players I don't defend him. When a 25-year-old Beckett does it twice inside two months you think he's "immature" and "thick headed." You cling to contradictory arguments and end up looking stupid. Dedicated, but stupid.

[wwerules]

Hey Web. Its not a rest area? Its a destination? Here are some numbers the Yankees should consider retiring and these are active players today.

Mark Bellhorn
Armando Benitez
Aaron Boone
Joe Borowski
Tony Clark
Brandon Claussen
Jose Contreras
David Dellucci
Alan Embree
Tom Gordon
Todd Greene
Jason Grimsley
Brad Halsey
Chris Hammond
Orlando Hernandez
D'Angelo Jimenez
Nick Johnson
Steve Karsay
Randy Keisler
Matt Lawton
Ricky Ledee
Travis Lee
Jon Lieber
Ted Lilly
Esteban Loaiza
Kenny Lofton
Mike Lowell
Dan Miceli
Terry Mulholland
Dioner Navarro
Jeff Nelson
Andy Pettitte
Juan Rivera
Felix Rodriguez
Kenny Rogers
Ruben Sierra
J.T. Snow
Alfonso Soriano
Russ Springer
Mike Stanton
Marcus Thames
Javier Vazquez
Mike Vento
Jose Vizcaino
David Weathers
Jeff Weaver
David Wells
Jake Westbrook
Rondell White
Bob Wickman
Chris Widger
Todd Williams
Jay Witasick
Tony Womack

I wonder if they all got curtain calls as well

Steve Karsay announced his retirement last weekend.:)

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

Since when did the baseball season become a race and not a marathon.

Toight: Mark shut up - the Red Sox are in 1st place by 1 game.....it's JUNE!!!! And it's one game!!!!

[Mark Weber]

Mark you really arent worth the time.... im done dealing with you after this post on you irrelevant issues. its obvious you just cant handle being wrong.

I think we can both agree that you continuing to argue with me is a waste of time. I've got no problem owning up when I'm proven or convinced that I'm wrong. I had the season series stats incorrect (but have since fixed them since you pointed it out) and I owned up to bee's claim that Boston is one of the winningest teams in the history of the World Series. What I'm not willing to do is back down because someone claims that I'm wrong but can't provide any credible reasons or statistics to back their stance. Good job schooling me on Pumpsie Green though. :rolleyes:

its 2006. June 21st to be exact. and the Redsox are in 1st place of the AL East by 2 games.

And if we're keeping it current, I'm impressed the Yankees have stayed close to the division lead despite the avalanche on injuries.

btw the Arroyo/Pena deal looks bad now yes. But Pena is young and has raw power. He still has a bright future even though he has had a wrist injury all this year. Personally i miss Arroyo because he was a good guy and a decent #4 or #5 starter.

I'm not discounting Pena's talent or his youth, just pointing out that the Arroyo deal looks one-sided right now, and that it also sets up Trot Nixon's inevitable departure at season's end. Another example of homegrown (at least since the minors) Sox players finding their way out of town.

Also if you think Ortiz is overrated you just dont have a clue about baseball. take off your Yankees goggles and like the game of baseball for a moment.

If you take off your Red Sox glasses you'll see that David Ortiz is hitting .287 with runners in scoring position - that's better than his overall average of .264, but only good enough to rank him SEVENTH on the Red Sox in that category. How is "Mr. Clutch" hitting in Close & Late situations (I mean all we ever hear about is how money Ortiz is with the game on the line)? Big Papi is gitting .216 in Close & Late situations - that's less than Varitek, Lowell, Ramirez, Loretta, Youkilis, Nixon, Crisp, Pena, Cora & Harris. It is better than Doug Mirabelii and Alex Gonzalez though. My point is that ORtiz has really struggled this season compared to his normal standards. Are you trying to tell me that Ortiz hitting .216 in Close & Late situations isn't a big deal?

As for Beckett...whats so embarrassing? Cause he gets pumped up. He pumps his fist after a big out? Sorry to tell you but this isnt the first pitcher to do this. Some of the all time greats did it. Its just emotion. There is nothing wrong with it. Nothing embarrassing at all. Also dont forget Mark that one of your Yankee pitchers... Randy Johnson does the same fist pump stuff and shows emotion while pitching as well. Is there bashing about that going on? No. I dont mind that stuff at all. It shows you care about your team and performance.You gotta have a passion for the game. I know its considered more "old school" to do stuff like pump your fist after big outs, throwing inside to back hitters off the plate, planting one on a batters butt in retaliation. but thats how baseball use to be played. There is nothing wrong with it at all.

I'm not talking about throwing inside, or pumping your fist. I'm talking about screaming obscenities at a player on the field, and even continuing an obsecene tirade from the dugout to a player on the field (during Spring Training no less). That's not "old school" that's being a straight-up punk. I don't dislike Beckett because he led the Marlins over the Yankees in the 2003 series - I dislike him because he's an unprofessional ballplayer who shows no signs of growing up. The fact that he plays for my least favorite team only fans the flames.

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

"ToightLikeATiger"....hahaha - that is a funny name. ;)

[Mark Weber]

Hey Web. Its not a rest area? Its a destination? Here are some numbers the Yankees should consider retiring and these are active players today.

Mark Bellhorn
Armando Benitez
Aaron Boone
Joe Borowski
Tony Clark
Brandon Claussen
Jose Contreras
David Dellucci
Alan Embree
Tom Gordon
Todd Greene
Jason Grimsley
Brad Halsey
Chris Hammond
Orlando Hernandez
D'Angelo Jimenez
Nick Johnson
Steve Karsay
Randy Keisler
Matt Lawton
Ricky Ledee
Travis Lee
Jon Lieber
Ted Lilly
Esteban Loaiza
Kenny Lofton
Mike Lowell
Dan Miceli
Terry Mulholland
Dioner Navarro
Jeff Nelson
Andy Pettitte
Juan Rivera
Felix Rodriguez
Kenny Rogers
Ruben Sierra
J.T. Snow
Alfonso Soriano
Russ Springer
Mike Stanton
Marcus Thames
Javier Vazquez
Mike Vento
Jose Vizcaino
David Weathers
Jeff Weaver
David Wells
Jake Westbrook
Rondell White
Bob Wickman
Chris Widger
Todd Williams
Jay Witasick
Tony Womack

I wonder if they all got curtain calls as well

So your basic point is that the Yankees retire too many players' numbers and that the fans cheer for them too much? Do you think there would be more curtain calls in Boston if the fans could recognize the team from year to year? Do you like Boston's policy that pevents them from retiring Jim Rice and Dwight Evans' numbers?

[robertbee]

Boston has a history of trading good players away or watching them leave via free agency. Historically, players don't stay in Boston. I don't know exactly WHY that is, but it has left Sox fans with memories of one title in 88 years and very few ballplayers they can truly call their own (Ted, Yaz, Doerr, Rice & Greenwell). I think that's sad.

Why is that sad? That happens in sports. Players do not stay with thier teams. In away your prejudice towards the Red Sox is no better than Tom Yawkey to blacks.

Speaking of hate. You never did answer this question.....:confused:


You keep bringing up racism. This country has a pretty bad history of it that still goes on today. Do you pitty your country as well because that is much much bigger than a baseball team. It was one guy. Yawkey. Pity him if you want but please dont pity me or any other Red Sox fan that cheers for his or her team. Using the racism card is trashy and fits well in this thread you started I may add.




It's true that I didn't realize Boston was tied for fourth on the all-time World Series win list - that's better than I realized.


Glad you are learning somethig Webah



Yet when New York took two of three in Fenway to close the season and secure their tenth straight division title last fall all you wanted to talk about was 2004. How do you want it bee? Maybe you should make a separate trash talking thread where we only talk about what's happening right now? You don't seem to care much for talking about the past, UNLESS it's 2004

remember that Yankees Sucks thread. Boy did that get under the skin of alot of Yankee fans. :D I learned from that thread that its not good to make trash talking threads it just gets people worked up and is disrespectful. ;)


Yet when New York took two of three in Fenway to close the season and secure their tenth straight division title last fall all you wanted to talk about was 2004. How do you want it bee? Maybe you should make a separate trash talking thread where we only talk about what's happening right now? You don't seem to care much for talking about the past, UNLESS it's 2004.

BECAUSE ITS A FRESH WOUND! HELLO... We have had to but up years of 26 this, Bucky Dent, you have used that term. 1918. 2004 ened all that. And now when we bring up 2004 yankee fans cry. and say we bring up the past. Kind of Ironic that the show is on the other foot and its a little bit to tight and we here Yankee fans whinning. Cry foul. After all it was Yankee fans who have tuanted Sox fans for years, decades if you will. Pay back sucks doesn't it Web. It must hurt since you have had to play the race card to give the Sox a "BLACK" eye ;) And wave all the Championships and retired numbers. Maybe you can have a curtain call from the Yankee faithful. They seem to give it out for foul balls now.

Seeing Arod put in his place by one of the most respect players in the game among his peers was awesome. Arod has been a pos where ever he goes. Just ask his Texas teamamtes. His Seattle teamates. So glad he ended up in pinstripes. Yankee fans deserve him.

Jeter's a good player, but he's not the greatest in terms of individual merit, talent, etc
Jeter the paper captian...First off over paid but all Yankees are. That is why they go thier. They sell thier soul when they sign with NY used like a hooker on a saturday night. Jeter 19 million. Over paid for a decline shortstop. Maybe the best #4 short stop int AL seem to be making alot of game ending outs this year. Any fool can run into a wall. Call it theatrics if you will. He plays to the crowd. I think when he does retire he may have a place on broadway Average defensive player at best. has no range and still hasn't figured out how to postion himslef. Instead of improving every year he has declined. He is all sizzle and no bacon.

Click here: ESPN.com: MLB - From the archives: Assessing Jeter's defense (http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1415713.html)

.
Derek Jeter smiled at the news that his peers named him the most over-rated player in the big leagues. In a Sports Illustrated poll of 470 players, Jeter was named on 9 percent of the ballots as the most over-rated. Mets center fielder Carlos Beltran was second with 7 percent and Alex Rodriguez was third with 6 percent.
"I don't care, I guess anything I do now is a plus," Jeter said with a grin. "At least I am in good company.'''
Joe Torre was surprised about Jeter being on top since he prefers the bottom.




It's pretty easy to drop those labels on any team you want.


as it is with you with your racism, rest stop destination drum beat, it has touched every team in sports. so come down off your throne.



What's not easy is to take a shot at a guy who died in a plane crash. An all-time low cheapshot even for a trash talking thread. Were you wearing your Varitek jersey when you wrte that?


No but I do have one and next time I wear it I will say a prayer 2 great Captians the heart and soul of their teams. one went down in flames. The other gets flamed on your thrash talking thread. Kind of ironic.


Here's the key difference between you and me as fans bee. When a 28-year-old A-Rod screams obscenities at opposing players I don't defend him. When a 25-year-old Beckett does it twice inside two months you think he's "immature" and "thick headed." You cling to contradictory arguments and end up looking stupid. Dedicated, but stupid.

Bravo. you don't defend Arod. I dont think too may people do. Calling Beckett immature and thick headed is contradictory arguement?

[robertbee]

So your basic point is that the Yankees retire too many players' numbers and that the fans cheer for them too much? Do you think there would be more curtain calls in Boston if the fans could recognize the team from year to year? Do you like Boston's policy that pevents them from retiring Jim Rice and Dwight Evans' numbers?

One day I hope they do retire some more numbers. Do I like it? No but that was under old management. This management hasa grasp of what the fans want. So thier is hope. If not it wont ruin my day. Life goes on. There are more important issues in life than retired numbers, curtain calls. and who's team is better. We know its the Red Sox.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Mark the problem here is you just want to argue. you cant handle a baseball discussion. you just want to bash the Redsox.

why cant you just talk about baseball. all you did repeat yourself on the same irrelevant issues.

i am also impressed the Yankees have stayed this close so far. they are playing good ball with injuries to 2 of their top 3 hitters. They had guys fill in and do a good job so far.

Redsox have battled injuries too so far. If either team was healthy i think they could pull away. But do to injuries it should be close all season.

Yes Ortiz is still a good ball player. you can convince me otherwise. No he hasnt started off like normal but he still puts up good numbers and will get better. Once again he slumped because of injury. He wasnt able to hit like normal. He is healthier now and hitting better lately. you can try to deny how clutch he is but he has proven since being with Boston he gets it done. I think he will continue this year as well. Still plenty of season left.

As for Beckett.... yes he yelled at 2 ball players. 1 was Ryan Howard for watching a ball (he thought was a homerun) and trying to show up Beckett. Beckett let him know he didnt appreciate it. The other was Shea Hillenbrand. this wasnt as bad but Hillenbrand started walking to first (thinking he had a walk) on a strike call. Not as bad as watching a fly ball but still a little disrespectful. Beckett didnt give him as much crap as Howard though. Just told him to get back in the box.

Once again something pitcher use to do alot. Pitchers wouldnt let hitters show them up. Beckett is an old school type of guy. He is a firey Texan.

I know now a days people may not like this old school stuff... but personally i dont mind. i like the old time baseball mentality. btw Randy Johnson would do the stuff too. Last year he struck out Johny Damon for out 1 in Inning #1. Damon thought he had walked before and took a step to first. What did Unit do after he struck Damon out? He walked toward him and starred him down to the dugout.

Johnson was just letting Damon know he didnt appreciate the slight disrespect. i dont like the Yankees but i have no problem with that.

Sometimes when i see Manny watch homeruns i expect pitchers to give him crap or throw at him next at bat. They dont but i wouldnt be suprised or upset if they did. Manny doesnt do it all the time but he does it.

See i can discuss baseball with you Mark. i love the game itself. I love it more then the Redsox. I can look at things partially. But i wont get into a argument with you over issues that have nothing to do with teh game today.

btw with Trot Nixon hitting .330 and being a big hitter in the lineup i wouldnt count him out of Boston next year at all. Willy Mo hasnt proven to be the replacement for anyone. Im thinking he is more of an insurance plan for Manny Ramirez then anything. If Manny decides he wants to be traded again in the offseason the Redsox have a power hitter that COULD take his spot.

Trot Nixon is still producing and is good for the team. He could go in the offseason but i wouldnt count on it.

[ToightLikeATiger]

I think the reason Jim Rice's # hasnt been retired yet is because he isnt in the HOF. With the new ownership he could get his jersey retired before hand but i think they would like to do it at the same time.

That being said if you look at the careers of the guys Redsox have retired (Williams and Yaz especially) Jim Rice doesnt match up with them.

Im betting once Roger Clemens retires they will put his number up (if he allows them which i think he will). Josh Beckett didnt take #21 this year and that was one of the reasons.

Pedro could be up there when he retires as well.

With the new ownership im thinking you will see more numbers retired. But i dont think a # should be retired just because you were well liked and spent your whole career with a team. Don Mattingly was a good ball player for the Yankees. But as a 1B in the history of baseball he is far down on the list.

Nothing against Mattingly at all. He just wasnt great.

I would like to see Wade Boggs # retired. This new ownership group has been going around cleaning up Dan Duquettes mess since they been on board. They had to repair relationships because how players were treated by Duquette. Everyone knows he was a horrible GM. He made good deals getting Pedro and Manny but it doesnt make up for the guys he let go.

[Vinnie4]

Maybe they can get Munson to fly the team plane.


Pure class. You make me sick.

[Mark Weber]

Players being so desperate to get out of Boston is sad because the fans get their heart broken again and again. Do Boston fans let their kids care about the players individually or do you teach them just to root for the uniform?

In away your prejudice towards the Red Sox is no better than Tom Yawkey to blacks.

So now my dedication to the Yankees somehow equates me with one of the most racist owners in the history of sports?

Speaking of hate. You never did answer this question.....
You keep bringing up racism. This country has a pretty bad history of it that still goes on today. Do you pitty your country as well because that is much much bigger than a baseball team. It was one guy. Yawkey. Pity him if you want but please dont pity me or any other Red Sox fan that cheers for his or her team. Using the racism card is trashy and fits well in this thread you started I may add.

Evidently you don't read what i type bee. Check out post #751 on the last page (page 19). I quote your question and respond with this:

"From a cosmic perspective, there is some pity but probably more accurately described as shame for how long open racism was accepted in the United States and how much of it still exists under the radar today. I think it's unfair to those it effected (and still effects) to ignore it or pretend it isn't still relevant. It's the combination of the Red Sox enormous title drought, their embarrasing history under a racist owner, and their century-old penchant for trading away their beloved players that make me feel they aren't a franchise worth rooting for."

remember that Yankees Sucks thread. Boy did that get under the skin of alot of Yankee fans. I learned from that thread that its not good to make trash talking threads it just gets people worked up and is disrespectful.

So far in this thread you've questioned what kind of fan I am, compared me to Boston's overtly racist former owner, and made fun of the plane crash that cost Yankees captain Thurman Munson his life. Who's the one being disrespectful? Is your parody of Lou Gehrig's farewell speech ready yet?

BECAUSE ITS A FRESH WOUND! HELLO... We have had to but up years of 26 this, Bucky Dent, you have used that term. 1918. 2004 ened all that. And now when we bring up 2004 yankee fans cry. and say we bring up the past. Kind of Ironic that the show is on the other foot and its a little bit to tight and we here Yankee fans whinning. Cry foul. After all it was Yankee fans who have tuanted Sox fans for years, decades if you will. Pay back sucks doesn't it Web.

2004 didn't end all of that, it just changed the argument. Boston went from being a cursed franchise to one that only wins a title once every 88 years. Boston's title in 2004 didn't erase any of the 26 rings you're tired of hearing about, and it didn't make Bucky Dent's homer go foul. I'm not whining at all bee - I'll play it any way you want. We can talk about past history, and all the titles Boston didn't win, their embarrassing ethnic history, and the way great Red Sox get shipped out of town or leave screaming for the door. If you want to talk recent history, our teams have combined for five championships in the last decade - we can certainly discuss that. If you want to talk current day, we can get into the Red Sox 2-game lead in the East and the reason New York has stayed in the hunt despite a staggering amount of injuries.

Seeing Arod put in his place by one of the most respect players in the game among his peers was awesome. Arod has been a pos where ever he goes. Just ask his Texas teamamtes. His Seattle teamates. So glad he ended up in pinstripes. Yankee fans deserve him.

So if Shea Hillenbrand or Ryan Howard had punched Beckett in the face you'd have been OK with that? Note the difference in the end of your paragraph - you're awful quick to deliver the sweeping generalities (Yankees suck, Yankee fans deserve him, etc.). I don't think I've ever taken a shot at "Boston fans" or "the Red Sox" team. I've said that I pity the Boston fans because they care so much about an organization I feel isn't worth rooting for. Do you remember all those funny photoshop pictures Yankee fans make of Boston players in feminine and homosexual positions??

Jeter's a good player, but he's not the greatest in terms of individual merit, talent, etc Jeter the paper captian...First off over paid but all Yankees are. That is why they go thier. They sell thier soul when they sign with NY used like a hooker on a saturday night. Jeter 19 million. Over paid for a decline shortstop. Maybe the best #4 short stop int AL seem to be making alot of game ending outs this year. Any fool can run into a wall. Call it theatrics if you will. He plays to the crowd. I think when he does retire he may have a place on broadway Average defensive player at best. has no range and still hasn't figured out how to postion himslef. Instead of improving every year he has declined. He is all sizzle and no bacon.

So Jeter's a "paper captain" because he's overpaid and plays to the crowd? He doesn't know how to position himself? He seemed to be in the right position to throw out Jeremy Giambi underhanded in the playoffs. I seem to remember Jeter pulling off the patented backhand scoop/cannon-throw from shallow left to end a Yankees win over Boston this year. Sure those are isolated examples, but no more isolated than Ortiz starting the World Series double play that you brought up earlier this year. Jeter's defense probably is overrated (despite his consecutive Gold Gloves), but he's the captain of the ship - something a guy who preached about "heart" and "clutch play" should be able to recognize. Sizzle might land you a fluke championship, but bacon brings you four.

When I said "It's pretty easy to drop those labels on any team you want." you countered with:

as it is with you with your racism, rest stop destination drum beat, it has touched every team in sports. so come down off your throne.

Sure it has. Free agency and racism have touched every franchise on some level. I can't think of any team it's touched as frequently or deeply as Boston though. That's my point.

2 great Captians the heart and soul of their teams. one went down in flames. The other gets flamed on your thrash talking thread. Kind of ironic.

Please tell me you're not going to stack Varitek's career up against Munson's. Munson was 32 years old when he died, while Varitek was 32 at the end of Boston's championship season in 2004. Their key numbers up to their 32nd birthday:

Homers: Munson 113, Varitek 101
RBI: Munson 701, Varitek 418
All-Star appearances: Munson 7, Varitek 2
Gold Glove awards: Munson 3, Varitek 1

Not to mention Munson's two titles to Varitek's one, or the Rookie of the Year and A.L. MVP awards Munson won that Varitek didn't. If you must compare Munson to another catcher please make it Fisk. They had a very storied rivalry before Carlton got the hell out of Boston.

Calling Beckett immature and thick headed is contradictory arguement?

You missed my point again. Saying that A-Rod deserved Varitek's punch while passing off Beckett's on-field obscenities as being "immature" and "thick-headed" is contradictory. If Boston had landed A-Rod from Texas and Posada had punched him in the face you'd be screaming bloody murder and calling Posada a thug.

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

You know what would be a fun game...counting the number of times Toight and Bee have said "you know what Mark, forget it, I'm not going to fight with you anymore"....hahaha

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

Pure class. You make me sick.
Ah - do I what I do - use the ignore feature. My motto: "Bee - Ignored since 2005"

[Vinnie4]

Nothing against Mattingly at all. He just wasnt great.


1985 AL MVP And MLB POY
runner up in 1986 AL MVP voting
6 Time All-Star 1984-1989
9 Gold Gloves 1985-1989,1991-1994
3 Sliver Slugger Awards 1985-1987
A career .307 batter in 14 seasons
1634 games at IB and only 64 errors for a .996 FP
1984 batting champion
Only the 10th captain in team history

I would beg to differ

[robertbee]

So now my dedication to the Yankees somehow equates me with one of the most racist owners in the history of sports?

Yes mark. You played the race card. You brought it up. To make the Sox look bad. Its a form os racism you brought into here. Its your way to to put the Sox down racism in sports goes deeper than the Sox. To this day but you need to put a black eye on the Sox in order to get a rise out of Sox fans. You should know better since you are a mod. But that means nothing since you are a Yankee fan. Sugar coat it all you want.
But you played the race card.




"From a cosmic perspective, there is some pity but probably more accurately described as shame for how long open racism was accepted in the United States and how much of it still exists under the radar today. I think it's unfair to those it effected (and still effects) to ignore it or pretend it isn't still relevant. It's the combination of the Red Sox enormous title drought, their embarrasing history under a racist owner, and their century-old penchant for trading away their beloved players that make me feel they aren't a franchise worth rooting for


Growing up in Massachusetts we root for our hometeams. Sorry if thats not worth anything to you. We all cant choose to be Yankee and Steelers fans. Ironic that you became a fan of them in the 70's. Easy pickings no doubt.

Is your parody of Lou Gehrig's farewell speech ready yet?

Lou who? I thought that was a disease?



2004 didn't end all of that, it just changed the argument. Boston went from being a cursed franchise to one that only wins a title once every 88 years. Boston's title in 2004 didn't erase any of the 26 rings you're tired of hearing about, and it didn't make Bucky Dent's homer go foul. I'm not whining at all bee - I'll play it any way you want. We can talk about past history, and all the titles Boston didn't win, their embarrassing ethnic history, and the way great Red Sox get shipped out of town or leave screaming for the door. If you want to talk recent history, our teams have combined for five championships in the last decade - we can certainly discuss that. If you want to talk current day, we can get into the Red Sox 2-game lead in the East and the reason New York has stayed in the hunt despite a staggering amount of injuries.



Oh yeah it did. It changed alot of things. Just look at this thread you started? Your need put down a franchise and discredit what the Sox did as a fluke, once in 88 years show how much it has changed you as a person. You never would have made a thread like this. I never would have expected you to come into "The Sand Box" and start a sand box fight. But here you are. The creator of this thread. Nothing positive is going to come out of this. All its going to do is get tempers flarring and you should know better Mr Mod. Your racist shots are cheap. But in the name of the Yankees its ok. You are entitled to your opinion though. I am proud of what the 'New Owners" have done but you want to open a can or worms. Are you pushing for a Ty Cobb figure as well? Maybe we can get a 2 pack with Tom Yawkey patting him on the should. Call it the Good Ole boys 2 pack.


I don't think I've ever taken a shot at "Boston fans" or "the Red Sox" team.


No just the players and the owners




Sure it has. Free agency and racism have touched every franchise on some level. I can't think of any team it's touched as frequently or deeply as Boston though. That's my point.


I dont get the point. racism is rascism. frequently or deeply as Boston? Please explain? Any form of racism is wrong. I didnt know there was diffent measurments?



You missed my point again. Saying that A-Rod deserved Varitek's punch while passing off Beckett's on-field obscenities as being "immature" and "thick-headed" is contradictory. If Boston had landed A-Rod from Texas and Posada had punched him in the face you'd be screaming bloody murder and calling Posada a thug.


Arod deserves more than a punch. Posada does have the balls to punch anyone. He and Arod pracitce slap fights in the locker room.


Good day.

[Vinnie4]

Lou who? I thought that was a disease?
ARod deserves more than a punch.

Even more class. You're running low on arguments, so you have to take cheap shots at deceased players?

The same could be said of you.





Hey ignorantbee, let's compare team captains, shall we?
Jason Varitek 9 seasons 1022 G, 463 R, 916 H, 126 HR, 521 RBI, .271 AVG.
Derek Jeter 11 seasons 1589 G, 1207 R, 2022 H, 174 HR, 808 RBI, .315 AVG.

Sounds like 1 of the teams has a paper captain.

[Mark Weber]

Yes mark. You played the race card. You brought it up. To make the Sox look bad.

I absolutely played the race card in the Red Sox vs. Yankees Trash Talking thread because Boston's history is embarrassing. I didn't bring it up "to make the Sox look bad," I brought it up because its the truth and it DOES make the Sox look bad. It's one of the three things I think is most shameful/embarrassing about your franchise. You pretending I "shouldn't go there" is like a Yankee fan saying "Don't talk about the salaries..."

Growing up in Massachusetts we root for our hometeams. Sorry if thats not worth anything to you. We all cant choose to be Yankee and Steelers fans. Ironic that you became a fan of them in the 70's. Easy pickings no doubt.

In response to your previous accusation, I absolutely owned up to being a bandwagon Steelers fan who's stayed faithful to the team. I started getting interested in pro sports in 1984, and with no pro teams in Oregon outside of the Trailblazers, I decided to root for teams from my home state of New York. How exactly does a New Yorker deciding to be a Yankee, Knicks, and Rangers fan in 1984 make me a bandwagon fan? Shouldn't I have pulled for the Islanders and switched to the Mets in 1986? Again you're missing my point - I'm not bemoaning you pulling for your hometown teams (and I haven't ripped the celtics, Bruins or Patriots once), I'm saying its sad that such a dedicated fan has such a disappointing franchise to root for.

Lou who? I thought that was a disease?

Is that supposed to be humor?

Oh yeah it did. It changed alot of things. Just look at this thread you started? Your need put down a franchise and discredit what the Sox did as a fluke, once in 88 years show how much it has changed you as a person. You never would have made a thread like this. I never would have expected you to come into "The Sand Box" and start a sand box fight. But here you are. The creator of this thread. Nothing positive is going to come out of this. All its going to do is get tempers flarring and you should know better Mr Mod. Your racist shots are cheap. But in the name of the Yankees its ok.

I made this thread so the Red Sox fans would leave the Yankees thread alone, and the Yankees fans would leave your Red Sox thread alone. It's worked so far - leaving each team's fans teir own respective threads while providing a dedicated space for fans who want to mix it up to have at it. I'm sorry that I keep smashing your aguments and pointing out your low-class points, but isn't it better here than on your OFFICIAL Red Sox thread?

I dont get the point. racism is rascism. frequently or deeply as Boston? Please explain? Any form of racism is wrong. I didnt know there was diffent measurments?

You hardly ever do. I'm not justifying racism on any level, just pointing out that Boston was the last club in MLB to integrate, and that the history of Red Sox racism under the Yawkey ownership was truly embarrassing. You're obviously embarrassed about it.

Arod deserves more than a punch. Posada does have the balls to punch anyone. He and Arod pracitce slap fights in the locker room.

Now we're talking! That's a Hall of Fame response right there. You avoided:

1. the dreadful Munson/Varitek comparison you attempted
2. Varitek's punch being low-class
3. Beckett's obscenities being low-class

All this while taking a shot at another Yankees player! Keep it up, you're amusing plenty of message board members. In the "point at the sad man" sort of way...

[Roper]

This thread has gone in an interesting direction...

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

This thread has gone in an interesting direction...

LOL, it's awesome. All we see is total off-the-wall discussions such as:

Person #1: "The Red Sox are better than the Yankees!"
Person #2: "Oh yeah, well the Red Sox hate black people!"

[ToightLikeATiger]

4-0 Redsox after a David Ortiz 2 out Grand Slam.

2nd in the league with 21 homers. 1st in the league with 64 RBI. Not bad for an overrated player eh Mark? :)

[Yukoner]

4-0 Redsox after a David Ortiz 2 out Grand Slam.

2nd in the league with 21 homers. 1st in the league with 64 RBI. Not bad for an overrated player eh Mark? :)

Toight, get ready for the inevitable "He doesn't play defense" gambit.

It's crap, but be prepared for it anyways.

[robertbee]

All this while taking a shot at another Yankees player! Keep it up, you're amusing plenty of message board members. In the "point at the sad man" sort of way...

I beleive that's what you intention are . Since you current team is in a state of dispair you need to show how big you are.

1. the dreadful Munson/Varitek comparison you attempted-

I take Tek over Munson. He's alive. Munson is dead and gone.


2. Varitek's punch being low-class

Was it really a punch? It was a mit in the face. Arod got what he deserved you make it out like he did nothing. Not many athletes would disrespect Tek. That came from you paper Captian

Varitek starts walking A-Rod down the line to get him to first without him going after the pitcher, proper protocol. The home plate umpire is between them. A-Rod continues yelling at Arroyo, Varitek says something, at which point A-Rod’s attention turns to Varitek.
-A-Rod clearly instigates the fight, inviting Varitek to hit him. “F—k you motherf—ker, come get me.” “Come on,” with a little hand wave. As any Red Sox fan knows, you do not screw with Jason Varitek. Melvin Mora made the same mistake two years ago when Baltimore visited Fenway on Family Day. Jason Varitek still has not forgotten it as evidenced by his hard tag on Mora on Opening Day when Mora was thrown out at home. A-Rod now knows that you do not screw with Varitek.

-After A-Rod stupidly tells Varitek to ‘come on’, Varitek throws the first ‘punch’ (more like a shove) into A-Rod’s face, and the rumble is on.


That game was the turnaround. The 2004 season has begun.
“It had more intensity than most postseason games. This win and the way it happened should prove to be very important to us. It’s hard to have a more meaningful regular-season victory. We’ve been kind of waiting to have this feeling all year.” - Theo Epstein

Thank you Arod. :D


“I was doing an interview in the locker room and saw them go at it,” says the source. “A-Rod walked past Jeter’s locker and mumbled something about his throw, then Jeter told him to go f*** himself and all hell broke lose. Their teammates were pulling them away from each other.”

Not only with Sox players but with the team Captian. Arod respects nobody but himself.







Is that supposed to be humor?


Lou Pinnella? Lou who?


There is a Yankees thread? I havent seen that in months. They just come here to see the car wreck. That thread is on the last page I bet.




I absolutely played the race card in the Red Sox vs. Yankees Trash Talking thread because Boston's history is embarrassing. I didn't bring it up "to make the Sox look bad," I brought it up because its the truth and it DOES make the Sox look bad. It's one of the three things I think is most shameful/embarrassing about your franchise. You pretending I "shouldn't go there" is like a Yankee fan saying "Don't talk about the salaries


I absolutely played the race card Mark Weber

Trying to sugar coat it again Web. So comparing salaries is compared to playing the race card?

Now I pity you my friend. You can sugar coat it all you want. Playing the race card is just wrong so you can win an argument and make yourself look good.
Tom Yawkey would be prooud of you my boy.


3. Beckett's obscenities being low-class


I did answer that. immaturity and thick headed. remember. And School of Arod. He;'s the best at it.

Off to work. Hope you have a nice night. Its been fun

[ToightLikeATiger]

Toight, get ready for the inevitable "He doesn't play defense" gambit.

It's crap, but be prepared for it anyways.

oh i know... Mark's been spewing crap since he started this thread.

he thinks he can win arguments by bringing up things that have nothing to do with anything.

personally i think mark is just acting like this too get Robertbee or other sox fans he dislikes to slip up and do something so he can ban them.

[Mavrik28]

Funny to read Red Sox fans complain about the Yankees retiring numbers. The Yankees have a long storied history so of course they would retire alot of players numbers. The Celtics won 16 World Titles and have also retired alot of numbers. 21 different numbers and 1 player name. 6 of those numbers belong to non hall of fame players and the one name, Jim Loscutoff isn't in the hall of fame either.

Why is it such a big deal for the Yankees to retire non hall of famers that were important to the franchise?

[robertbee]

next:rolleyes:

[Roper]

I know this is off topic, but Jose Reyes is a single away from the cycle. He has homered, doubled, and tripled (in that order) and it's only the 5th inning. :)

[ToightLikeATiger]

another great start for Jon Lester.

6IP 1ER 3HITS and 10K's

so far he is as advertised.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Jon Lester hates black people and his number will never be retired.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Jon Lester hates black people and his number will never be retired.

haha... classic.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

I know this is off topic, but Jose Reyes is a single away from the cycle. He has homered, doubled, and tripled (in that order) and it's only the 5th inning. :)

He's done it!

[Roper]

He's done it!

:cool:

[Vinnie4]

Funny to read Red Sox fans complain about the Yankees retiring numbers. The Yankees have a long storied history so of course they would retire alot of players numbers. The Celtics won 16 World Titles and have also retired alot of numbers. 21 different numbers and 1 player name. 6 of those numbers belong to non hall of fame players and the one name, Jim Loscutoff isn't in the hall of fame either.

Why is it such a big deal for the Yankees to retire non hall of famers that were important to the franchise?

Very good point, and a very simple answer. Bacause it's the Yankees. Did you notice how robertbee just ignored it? Classic. And typical.

[fenwayp]

Jon Lester hates black people and his number will never be retired.

NotoriousVC...I am offended by the fact that you switched your avatar to a white man. Reminds me of the old Patriots logo...LOL...they changed it over controversy that it was not a "diverse" enough logo. You better watch out, or Mark might ban you for avatar racism :eek: ;) :D

[fenwayp]

Funny to read Red Sox fans complain about the Yankees retiring numbers. The Yankees have a long storied history so of course they would retire alot of players numbers. The Celtics won 16 World Titles and have also retired alot of numbers. 21 different numbers and 1 player name. 6 of those numbers belong to non hall of fame players and the one name, Jim Loscutoff isn't in the hall of fame either.

Why is it such a big deal for the Yankees to retire non hall of famers that were important to the franchise?

All this talk and argument/discussion about retired numbers bores me :D
Retired numbers are not worthy of trash talking. Let's get back to the good stuff, like:

THE YANKEES SUCK
:eek: :D

[Stephanie14]

Even more class. You're running low on arguments, so you have to take cheap shots at deceased players?

The same could be said of you.





Hey ignorantbee, let's compare team captains, shall we?
Jason Varitek 9 seasons 1022 G, 463 R, 916 H, 126 HR, 521 RBI, .271 AVG.
Derek Jeter 11 seasons 1589 G, 1207 R, 2022 H, 174 HR, 808 RBI, .315 AVG.

Sounds like 1 of the teams has a paper captain.


You tell him Baby!

[Vinnie4]

Yankees win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Theeeeeeeeeeee Yankees WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mark Weber]

4-0 Redsox after a David Ortiz 2 out Grand Slam.

2nd in the league with 21 homers. 1st in the league with 64 RBI. Not bad for an overrated player eh Mark? :)

Ortiz has absolutely monster stats this year. Can you imagine what they'd be if he hit with RISP or in Close & Late situations?

[Mark Weber]

oh i know... Mark's been spewing crap since he started this thread.

he thinks he can win arguments by bringing up things that have nothing to do with anything.

personally i think mark is just acting like this too get Robertbee or other sox fans he dislikes to slip up and do something so he can ban them.

Please, like you and robertbee haven't both gotten a wheelbarrow-full of warnings and suspensions since I arrived as the moderator on this board.

[Mark Weber]

Jon Lester hates black people and his number will never be retired.

Lester may well get his number retired for whatever team he goes to after Boston.

[Mark Weber]

bee, you type and type but you don't ever say anything of substance. What exactly are you arguing? That you can make fun of Yankees players who died tragically? That Varitek is a "tough guy" because he cheap shots other players? That A-Rod is a bad teammate for bad-mouthing teammates in the locker room, when a Red Sox player did the same thing to Curt Schilling just months ago? Saying Varitek's punch to A-Rod was low class doesn't make me A-Rod's champion. What does supporting Varitek's punch and Beckett's mouth make you?

Trying to sugar coat it again Web. So comparing salaries is compared to playing the race card? Now I pity you my friend. You can sugar coat it all you want. Playing the race card is just wrong so you can win an argument and make yourself look good. Tom Yawkey would be prooud of you my boy.

Please explain to me in excruciating detail what you're trying to say here, 'cause it's making less sense than you usually do. Me bringing up Yawkey's history of racism is off-limits for some reason? Anything else about Boston's history you don't want me to reference? I'd hate to hurt your feelings on a trash talking thread. I'm not trying to "win an argument" here, I'm just stating the three reasons I think you've chosen a terrible franchise to pledge your blind loyalty to. In case it's one of the posts you've missed or chosen to skip:

1. A long-established tradition of losing (at least at the championship level) since their initial dynasty ended with the sale of Babe Ruth.

2. A long-established history of racism under previous owner Tom Yawkey.

3. An embarrassing string of great players who got out of Boston one way or another, leaving you with only a handful of Red Sox Legends (Yaz, Rice, Williams, Doerr) to be proud of.

Feel free to dive into any of that - or just post a picture of Varitek punching A-Rod, or photoshop work of Jeter and A-Rod hugging, or a good old fashioned "YANKEES SUCK." You could call me out for being a bandwagon fan again - that's always entertaining. We really should have a drinking game established for which tried-and-true evasive tactic you take. You haven't made fun of Billy Martin's death yet...

[robertbee]

You haven't made fun of Billy Martin's death yet...


I have to much respect for boozebags so I would never saying anything bad about Billy the Bum



Feel free to dive into any of that - or just post a picture of Varitek punching A-Rod, or photoshop work of Jeter and A-Rod hugging, or a good old fashioned "YANKEES SUCK." You could call me out for being a bandwagon fan again - that's always entertaining

Hey you go Web.. Yankees suck.
He is A-Fraud
"He (Alex Rodriguez) also spent a considerable amount of time, in his conversations with the Sox, telling them how much he hated the Yankees, the industry source said. When Rodriguez first told Texas owner Tom Hicks he would waive his no-trade clause for two teams, the Yankees and Red Sox, he included the Yankees only to give Hicks, and himself, some leverage in dealing with the Sox. - 2.22 Globe, Edes (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/02/22/pitchers_still_balking_on_questec_system/)
http://bostondirtdogs.com/2004/ar_Jdb.jpg
Saturday Night Live: "The Yankees gave A-Rod something the Red Sox couldn't: a boyfriend. - Jimmy Fallon, Weekend Update, 2.21.04


Arods always been a bad teamate and a liar....Texas players were glad to see him go.

Captain A-Fraud Jumps Ship
"I would like to sign with another team and help dethrone the Yankees -- they've won too much already," Rodriguez said Friday.
The Yankees have been rumored to be interested in signing Rodriguez and moving him to third base because they already have his buddy, Derek Jeter, at shortstop.
Rodriguez isn't interested in that possibility.
"I like playing shortstop and I'm young," the 25-year-old said. "I want to play it until I'm 35 and then I'll study the possibility of being moved." - A-Rod to AP (http://www.detnews.com/2000/tigers/0011/05/sports-143723.htm)
Creep in the Heart of Texas
"I feel a grand responsibility not only to the Texas Rangers, but to our fans." - Captain A-Rod




Me bringing up Yawkey's history of racism is off-limits for some reason?


Why bring racism into a trash talking thread. Its only going to get ugly. You should know better but you had to load your gun and fire the race issue. Its uncalled for. Its a form of racism. You want to make the Sox organization look bad by playing the race card. Its a cheap shot. Its not off limits by no means its a desprate move on your behave because the current team is doing well and you need to knock them down for past faults. We moved forward in Boston but you want to take 3 steps back. I find it cheap. As cheap as saying Munson should fly the current Yankees t plane because its going down faster than his plane.

I'm just stating the three reasons I think you've chosen a terrible franchise to pledge your blind loyalty to

I did not chose I was born into it. Its part of my history. I wasn't fortune like you to choose teams with Dynastys at the time. Do you have a Miami Heat hat or Canes hat as of late?

. What does supporting Varitek's punch and Beckett's mouth make you?
A Red Sox fan. A loyal one at that.


3. An embarrassing string of great players who got out of Boston one way or another, leaving you with only a handful of Red Sox Legends (Yaz, Rice, Williams, Doerr) to be proud of.

Lets not forget,

<Wade Boggs 2004

Rick Burleson 2002

Bill Carrigan 2004

Ken Coleman 2000

Eddie Collins National Baseball Hall of Fame

Jimmy Collins National Baseball Hall of Fame

Tony Conigliaro 1995

Joe Cronin 1995

Dom DiMaggio 1995

Bobby Doerr 1995

Dennis Eckersley National Baseball Hall of Fame

Dwight Evans 2000

Rick Ferrell National Baseball Hall of Fame

Dave "Boo" Ferriss 2002

Carlton Fisk 1997

Jimmie Foxx 1997

Billy Goodman 2004

John "Lou" Gorman 2002

Curt Gowdy 2000

Lefty Grove National Baseball Hall of Fame

John Harrington 2002

Harry Hooper 1997

Cecil "Tex" Hughson 2002

Bruce Hurst 2004

Jackie Jensen 2000

Larry Gardner 2000

George "Duffy" Lewis 2002

Jim Lonborg 2002

Fred Lynn 2002

Frank Malzone 1995

Ned Martin 2000

Bill Monbouquette 2000

**** O'Connell 1997

Mel Parnell 1997

Johnny Pesky 1995

Rico Petrocelli 1997

**** Radatz 1997

Jim Rice 1995

Pete Runnels 2004

Babe Ruth 1995

Reggie Smith 2000

Tris Speaker 2000

Bob Stanley 2000

Haywood Sullivan 2004

Luis Tiant 1997

Smoky Joe Wood 1995

Ted Williams 1995

Carl Yastrzemski 1995

Jean R. Yawkey 1995

Tom Yawkey National Baseball Hall of Fame - :spawnorb:

Cy Young

[Vinnie4]

3. An embarrassing string of great players who got out of Boston one way or another, leaving you with only a handful of Red Sox Legends (Yaz, Rice, Williams, Doerr) to be proud of.

Lets not forget, [/CENTER]

<Wade Boggs 2004 -YANKEES, Devil Rays

Rick Burleson 2002 -Angels, Orioles

Bill Carrigan 2004

Ken Coleman 2000

Eddie Collins National Baseball Hall of Fame -?

Jimmy Collins National Baseball Hall of Fame -Colonels, Athletics

Tony Conigliaro 1995 -Angels

Joe Cronin 1995 -Pirates, Senators

Dom DiMaggio 1995

Bobby Doerr 1995

Dennis Eckersley National Baseball Hall of Fame -Indians, Cubs, Athletics, Cardinals

Dwight Evans 2000 -Orioles.......granted, when I think of him, I think of Red Sox

Rick Ferrell National Baseball Hall of Fame -Browns, Senators

Dave "Boo" Ferriss 2002

Carlton Fisk 1997 -White Sox

Jimmie Foxx 1997 -Athletics, Cubs, Phillies

Billy Goodman 2004 -Orioles, White Sox, Astros

John "Lou" Gorman 2002

Curt Gowdy 2000 -Giants

Lefty Grove National Baseball Hall of Fame -Athletics

John Harrington 2002

Harry Hooper 1997 -White Sox

Cecil "Tex" Hughson 2002

Bruce Hurst 2004 -Padres, Rockies, Rangers

Jackie Jensen 2000 YANKEES, Senators

Larry Gardner 2000 -Athletics, Indians

George "Duffy" Lewis 2002 -YANKEES, Senators

Jim Lonborg 2002 -Brewers, Phillies

Fred Lynn 2002 -Angels, Orioles, Tigers, Padres

Frank Malzone 1995 -Angels

Ned Martin 2000 -Found Babe Martin.....if the same.........Browns

Bill Monbouquette 2000 -Tigers, YANKEES, Giants

**** O'Connell 1997

Mel Parnell 1997

Johnny Pesky 1995 -Tigers, Senators

Rico Petrocelli 1997

**** Radatz 1997 -Indians, Cubs, Tigers, Expos

Jim Rice 1995

Pete Runnels 2004 -Senators, Astros

Babe Ruth 1995 -YANKEES

Reggie Smith 2000 -Cardinals, Dodgers

Tris Speaker 2000 -Indians, Senators, Athletics

Bob Stanley 2000

Haywood Sullivan 2004 -Athletics

Luis Tiant 1997 -Indians, Twins, YANKEES, Pirates, Angels

Smoky Joe Wood 1995 -Indians

Ted Williams 1995

Carl Yastrzemski 1995

Jean R. Yawkey 1995

Tom Yawkey National Baseball Hall of Fame - :spawnorb:

Cy Young -Spiders, Cardinals, Indians


Rest Stop

[Mark Weber]

OK bee, since you were content to cut & paste the Red Sox Hall of Fame, I did a little research on ‘em. I didn’t dispute any broadcasters, owners, GMs, managers or coaches – just players. At first glance, I think about 40% of the players in Boston's Hall of Fame didn't really make their mark as Red Sox. Will Bagwell get nominated to the Red Sox Hall of Fame? Of the guys that did make thier mark in Boston, an unbeleivable amount of them left the team on bad terms (Speaker, Boggs, Conigliaro, Fisk, Lynn etc.)

Wade Boggs: Played in Boston for a decade, winning five batting titles and making eight straight All-Star teams before he leaving via free agency to win a championship with the Yankees
http://chronicle.augusta.com/images/headlines/010405/41513_512.jpg

Rick Burleson: After spending the first seven years of his 13-year career in Boston, he was traded to the California Angels. Career .273 hitter with 360 career RBI as a Red Sox.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/rick_burleson_autograph.jpg


Eddie Collins: 1300 career RBI for this Hall-of-Fame outfielder, who played 23 total seasons for the Philadelphia Athletics and Chicago White Sox. Served as Boston’s general manager from 1933 to 1947. The Red Sox made the postseason just one time (1947) during his time in Boston.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/eddie_collins_autograph.jpg

Jimmy Collins: Hall-of-Fame third baseman who debuted with the Louisville Colonels in 1895. Made his mark with six seasons for the Boston Braves, Managed the Boston Pilgrims to a World Series Championship in 1903 – played/managed six full seasons for the Pilgrims/Red Sox before being traded to the Philadelphia Athletics in 1907.

Tony Conigliaro: A broken arm kept “Tony C.” from winning the A.L. Rookie of the Year award in 1964. He became (at the time) the youngest player in A.L. history to reach 100 career homers. Conigliaro’s promising career was derailed on August 18th, 1967 when he was struck by a pitch from Angels pitcher Jack Hamilton. Conigliaro suffered a broken left cheekbone and severe retina damage to his left eye. He missed the rest of the year and all of the 1968 season, but returned to the Red Sox lineup in 1970, hitting 20 homers and driving in 82 RBI while winning the Comeback Player of the Year award. In 1971, Tony set career highs with 36 homers and 116 RBI. Following his best-ever season, Boston traded the 25-year-old outfielder to the California Angels, the team that had (unintentionally) nearly ended his career four years earlier. Attempted a comeback with Boston in 1975, but retired at the end of the season.
http://www.printsandphotos.com/Merchant2/images/fullsize/0/0674.jpg

Joe Cronin: The Hall-of-Fame shortstop spent the first nine years of his career in Pittsburgh and Washington, before finding a home in Boston in 1935. Cronin played eleven seasons in Boston as a player/manager, and finished up his Red Sox tenure with two seasons as a manager only. He led Boston to the postseason just once, in 1946.
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/wallpaper/cronin_joe.jpg

Dom DiMaggio: Joe’s little brother played his entire career in Boston – making the All-Star team in seven of his eleven seasons. Dom delivered 87 career homers and 618 career RBI – that’s 274 homers and 919 RBI less than his big brother delivered in his Hall-of-Fame career with the Yankees.

Bobby Doerr: Hall-of-Fame second baseman spent his entire 14-year career in Boston.

Dennis Eckersley: Hall-of-Fame pitcher started his career with three years in Cleveland before being traded to Boston. Won 80 games in six Boston seasons before being traded to the Chicago Cubs for Bill Buckner. Eck made the All-Star team six times in his 24-year career, including once with Boston. Eckersley won a World Series with Oakland in 1988, and landed the A.L. Cy Young and MVP awards in 1992. Eck finished his career with a final season with the Red Sox in 1998, giving him seven of his 24 seasons in Boston
http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/photos/Eckersley_Dennis011000.jpg

Dwight Evans: Three-time All-Star and eight-time Gold Glove winner played 19 seasons for Boston before finishing his career with one season for the Baltimore Orioles.

Rick Ferrell: Hall-of-Fame catcher broke in with the St. Louis Browns, and was traded to Boston during his fifth season in 1933. Between 1933-36, Ferrell broke Red Sox catchers' records in batting, doubles, home runs and runs batted in. His .302 batting average with Boston is 12th on the club's all-time list. Boston traded him to Washington in 1937, and he finished his career with the Senators and a return to the Browns. Ferrell played 7.5 years with Washington, 6.5 seasons in St. Louis, and four years in Boston.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/rick_ferrell_autograph.jpg

Dave "Boo" Ferriss: Ferriss’ career got off to a brilliant start – with 21 wins as a 23-year-old Red Sox rookie, then backed it up with a 25-6 record in his second season. Arm troubles and chronic asthma shortened his career, as he would only earn 19 wins over the next four seasons. He retired in 1950 after six years with Boston.

Carlton Fisk: The Hall-of-Fame catcher played his first eleven seasons for Boston, winning the Rookie of the Year award and a Gold Glove to go with seven All-Star selections. Fisk hit one of the most memorable homers in baseball history, crushing a Pat Darcy pitch off the foul pole in left field to give Boston a 7-6 victory in Game Six of the 1975 World Series. Cincinnati beat Boston in Game Seven the following day. Following the 1980 season, Fisk would leave the Boston and sign with the White Sox. Fisk would play 13 of his 24 seasons in Chicago, wearing number “72” – the inverse of the “27” he wore with the Red Sox. Chicago retired his number 72 in 1997, and Boston followed suit – hanging up his number 27 in 1972. The White Sox unveiled a life-sized bronze statue of Carlton Fisk on August 7, 2005.
http://www.sportsposterwarehouse.com/warehouse/fisk91cos-1.jpg

Jimmie Foxx: The Hall-of-Fame outfielder started his career with eleven seasons in Philadelphia. He was released midway through this seventh season in Boston after a debilitating sinus condition and troubles with alcohol sidelined his career. He finished his career with stints with the Cubs and Phillies.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/79/Time-magazine-cover-jimmie-foxx.jpg

Billy Goodman: Goodman played 10.5 seasons in Boston, making the All-Star team twice and winning a batting title in 1950. Boston traded him to Baltimore in 1957. Goodman was then dealt to the White Sox before finishing his career with one season in Houston.
http://www.1959whitesox.com/cards/Goodman_Billy.jpg

Lefty Grove: Hall-of-Fame pitcher started his career with nine years in Philadelphia, before moving to Boston for his final eight seasons. 105 of his 300 career victories came with the Red Sox.
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/wallpaper/grove_lefty.jpg

Harry Hooper: Hall-of-Fame right fielder was a stalwart for the early-centrury Red Sox, turning in a dozen Boston seasons. He’s the only player in history to win four World Series with the Red Sox. Was named captain of the Red Sox in 1919 and let go two seasons later – finishing up his career with five years in White Sox.

Cecil "Tex" Hughson: Pitched all eight seasons with Boston, turning in 96 career victories and playing on three All-Star teams.

Bruce Hurst: Hurst spent his first nine seasons with the Red Sox, turning in 88 victories in a Boston uniform. The 88 wins make Hurst tied for 18th place on Boston’s all-time Wins list. Left via free agency after the 1988 season, spending 4.5 seasons with San Diego and parts of a season with Colorado and Texas.
http://www.autograph-cards.com/Cards%5CBigCardsX%5C018594.jpg

Jackie Jensen: Jensen started his career with four years with the Yankees and Senators before landing in Boston in 1954. He went to a pair of All-Star games during his seven years in Boston.

Larry Gardner: The third baseman for Boston’s dynasty, Gardner played ten years in Boston before leaving for a season in Philadelphia and finishing his career with six seasons for Cleveland. 481 of his 934 career RBI came with the Red Sox and rank him 32nd on Boston’s all-time list.

George "Duffy" Lewis: Part of the “Million Dollar Outfield” with Tris Speaker and Harry Hooper that delivered World Series victories in 1912 and 1915. Lewis was famous for his defensive prowess on the uphill stretch of left field that became known as “Duffy’s Cliff.” He left the Sox after the 1917 season to serve in the U.S. Army during World War I. When he returned from in December 1918, Boston immediately traded him to the Yankees. The Boston Post reported that "it will take a lot to convince Boston fans that they got the best of this one."

Jim Lonborg: Lonborg pitched his first seven seasons for Boston – compiling a 68-65 record (29th most in Red Sox history). He was an All-Star and the Cy Young award winner for his 1967 season, where he went 22-9. The Red Sox traded Lonborg to Milwaukee in 1971, where he played one season before being dealt to the Phillies. He spent his last seven seasons in Philadelphia and compiled a 75-60 record.
http://www.nicksportsautographs.com/Baseball/JimLonborg1.jpg

Fred Lynn: Lynn exploded onto the scene in Boston, becoming the first player in history to win the Rookie of the Year and MVP awards in the same season. He was named to the American League All-Star team in each of his six full seasons with the Red Sox, and was the MVP of the ALCS in 1975 that sent Boston to the World Series to face the Reds. As the best young Boston outfielder since Tony Conigliaro, Boston made sure to trade the 28-year-old Lynn to California. He played 4.5 seasons for California, and wrapped up his career with stints in Detroit, Baltimore and San Diego. 124 of Lynn’s 306 career homers came with the Red Sox, placing him 21st on the all-time list.

http://www.georgesstamps.com/sports/baseball/Angels_1982/Fred_Lynn.jpg

Frank Malzone: 6-time All-Star third baseman played his first 11 seasons for Boston before wrapping up his career with one year as an Angel. .

Bill Monbouquette: The pride of Medford, Massachusetts, Bill Monbouquette pitched his first eight seasons with the Red Sox, winning 96 games for Boston. Monbouquette threw the 11th no-hitter in Boston history back in 1962. Three years later he was traded to the Tigers, and finished his career with brief stints with the Yankees and Giants. Monbouquette retired in 1968, but returned to baseball as a minor-league pitching coach for the Detroit Tigers in 2004.

Mel Parnell: He spent his entire 10-year career in Boston, winning 123 games and playing on two All-Star teams. The 123 victories place him fourth on Boston’s all-time wins list.

Johnny Pesky: They named the right field pole after the former Red Sox outfielder and one-time All-Star, who spent his first 7.5 seasons in Boston before being traded to Detroit in 1952. His 361 RBIs with Boston place him 43rd on the all-time Red Sox list.

http://www.1980olympichockey.com/images/13920.jpg

Rico Petrocelli: Two-time All-Star 3B Rico Petrocelli played his entire 13-year career with the Red Sox. His career .251 average places him 85th on the Red Sox all-time list.

D. Radatz: He spent the first four years of his seven-year career in Boston, recording 104 saves, the second-most in Boston history. The Red Sox sent “The Animal” to Cleveland in 1966.

Jim Rice: He played all 16 of his big league seasons with the Red Sox, winning an MVP award and playing in eight All-Star games. Rice has the third-most homers and RBI in Boston history, and took top prospect Ellis Burks under his wing, telling the youngster "Get your six years in," Rice told Burks, "and then get the hell out of Boston." Burks did just that, following Carlton Fisk’s trail to the Chicago White Sox.

Pete Runnels: Infielder Pete Runnels played his first seven years with Washington, before joining Boston for five seasons starting in 1958. He won American League batting titles in 1960 and 1962, but was trade to the Houston Colt .45s just months after the second batting title. Nearly 45% of his 1854 career hits came as a member of the Red Sox.

Babe Ruth: Ruth won 89 games as a starting pitcher for Boston, good enough for 17th place on the All-Time Red Sox leaderboard. 49 of Ruth’s homers came with Boston, before he hit his next 659 homers after being sold to the New York Yankees at age 25.

Reggie Smith: Outfielder Reggie Smith played his first eight seasons in Boston, playing in two All-Star Games and winning one Gold Glove. Smith was traded to the Cardinals at age 28, and finished his career in St. Louis, Los Angeles and San Francisco. Less than half his career was spent in Boston.

http://www.reggiesmithbaseball.com/cards/RS-Dodgers-1982.jpg

Tris Speaker: Boston’s brilliant centerfielder played his first nine seasons in Fenway, winning titles in 1912 and 1915. After the World Series victory, Speaker had a falling out with Red Sox president Joe Lannin, who wanted Speaker to take a pay cut from about $15,000 to about $9,000 since his average had fallen to a mere .322. Speaker refused and would not sign such a contract. On April 12, 1916 Lannin dealt Speaker to the Cleveland Indians for Sam Jones, Fred Thomas and $50,000. Speaker spent 11 seasons in Cleveland, and wrapped up his career with single seasons in Philadelphia and Washington. 38% of Speaker’s 3514 career hits came while he was playing for Boston.

http://memory.loc.gov/ndlpcoop/ichicdn/s0606/s060656.jpg

Bob Stanley: Stanley played all 13 of his seasons in Boston, where he split time between the starting rotation and the bullpen. Stanley’s 132 saves are the most in Red Sox history.

Luis Tiant: After six years in Cleveland and one in Minnesota, Luis Tiant came to the Red Sox in 1971, and compiled 122 wins over the next eight seasons. Boston chose to let “El Tiante” walk after a 13-8 season in 1978, and he finished his career with stints as a Yankee, Pirate and Angel.
http://bruce.mlblogs.com/photos/card_corner/luis_tiant1965_topps.jpg

”Smoky” Joe Wood: He debuted as an 18-year-old in Boston’s rotation, and pitched eight seasons for the Red Sox, including a jaw-dropping 34-5 season in Boston’s championship year of 1912. Wood went 3-1 in the 1912 World Series, including Boston's deciding Game 8 in which he beat Hall of Famer Christy Mathewson. Wood was named World Series MVP. The following year, Wood slipped on wet grass while fielding a bunt in a game against the Detroit Tigers. He fell and broke his thumb, and pitched in pain for the following three seasons. Although he maintained a winning record and a low ERA, his appearances were limited as he could no longer recover quickly from pitching a game. Late in the 1917 season, Wood was sold to the Cleveland Indians, where he rejoined former teammate Tris Speaker.

Ted Williams: A patriot who interrupted his Hall-of-Fame baseball career to serve in the U.S. military TWICE, Ted Williams played in 17 All-Star Games, while winning two MVPs and a Triple Crown in his 19-year career in Boston.

Carl Yastrzemski: “Yaz” played all 23 of the seasons in his Hall of Fame career with the Red Sox, appearing in 18 All-Star games while winning an MVP and a Triple Crown.

Cy Young: Baseball’s all-time winningest pitcher spent eight of his 22 seasons with Boston, delivering 192 of his 511 career wins for Boston.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d2/Cy_young.jpg/180px-Cy_young.jpg

And bee made fun of the Yankees retiring too many numbers?

[robertbee]

Rest Stop
Vinnie4 (aka Vito4)


I am sure you know all the rest stops in Vermont. How are the Johnny Cakes Vincent... do you like them with hot maple syrup. Thats so sweet.

[robertbee]

leaving you with only a handful of Red Sox Legends (Yaz, Rice, Williams, Doerr) to be proud of. Web

Looks like more than a handful I must say. Thanks for posting some history. Glad to see you have indulged in a little Red Sox history instead of bashing them for past faults. We learn from out history to make us better in the future. I hope you can learn somethig as well. The Red Sox of today are not what it was back then. The times change and the people change and the owners have changed. That is why we won a Championship. You can ignore what they have done ,by bring it down with past faults,
by saying "they aren't a franchise worth rooting for" I beg to differ. I enjoy rooting for them win or lose. We have a better team than the Yankees and this organization will be in contention for the long haul. They have done a great job since taking over and I find that worth rooting for. I maybe one voice but I am proud to be a Red Sox fan and always will no matter how much you try and taint it or make me look bad. Todays Yankees are a shell of what they use to be. Thier desperation to win another for King George is hurting them in the long run. Bad signings, trading talent away has been the downfall of what use to be a good organization. If you want to dane to the music you got to pay the fiddler.... Time to pay the fiddler WEBAH

[Vinnie4]

The Yankees are a shell of what they used to be? Boston won 5 titles from 1912-1918, then have won 1 title in 88 years. Maybe you should focus more on the Red Sox history and stop worrying about what the Yankees are doing.

[Mark Weber]

Looks like more than a handful I must say. Thanks for posting some history. Glad to see you have indulged in a little Red Sox history instead of bashing them for past faults. We learn from out history to make us better in the future. I hope you can learn somethig as well. The Red Sox of today are not what it was back then. The times change and the people change and the owners have changed. That is why we won a Championship. You can ignore what they have done ,by bring it down with past faults,
by saying "they aren't a franchise worth rooting for" I beg to differ. I enjoy rooting for them win or lose. We have a better team than the Yankees and this organization will be in contention for the long haul. They have done a great job since taking over and I find that worth rooting for. I maybe one voice but I am proud to be a Red Sox fan and always will no matter how much you try and taint it or make me look bad. Todays Yankees are a shell of what they use to be. Thier desperation to win another for King George is hurting them in the long run. Bad signings, trading talent away has been the downfall of what use to be a good organization. If you want to dane to the music you got to pay the fiddler.... Time to pay the fiddler WEBAH

Wow you didn't read a single thing I typed. 16 players in the "Boston Red Sox Hall of Fame" are also members of the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown. Nine of those 16 players (Boggs, Cronin, Doerr, Ferrell, Fisk, Foxx, Grove, Williams & Yastrzemski) are wearing Boston Red Sox caps on their plaques. Seven do not (Eddie & Jimmy Collins, Dennis Eckersley, Harry Hooper, Babe Ruth, Tris Speaker & Cy Young).

If you divy it up, the players in the "Boston Red Sox Hall of Fame" fall into four categories:

COOPERSTOWN HALL OF FAME MEMBERS REMEMBERED AS RED SOX (7)
Wade Boggs, Joe Cronin, Bobby Doerr, Carlton Fisk, Harry Hooper, Ted Williams & Carl Yastrzemski.

LONGTIME RED SOX WHO MADE A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT (8)
Dom DiMaggio, Dwight Evans, Billy Goodman, Duffy Lewis, Frank Malzone, Jim Rice, Bob Stanley & Joe Wood.

COOPERSTOWN HALL OF FAME MEMBERS NOT REMEMBERED AS RED SOX (7)
Rick Ferrell, Dennis Eckersley, Jimmie Foxx, Lefty Grove, Babe Ruth, Tris Speaker & Cy Young.

PLAYERS WHO MADE NO SIGNIFICANT IMPACT OR JUST RENTED IN BOSTON (15)
Rick Burleson, Eddie & Jimmy Collins, Tony Conigliaro, Dave Ferriss, Cecil Hughson, Bruce Hurst, Jackie Jensen, Jim Lonborg, Fred Lynn, Johnny Pesky, Rico Petrocelli, D. Radatz, Pete Runnels & Reggie Smith.

The "Boston Red Sox Hall of Fame" has some pretty low standards. Jeff Bagwell, Johnny Damon and Orlando Cabrera will surely be inducted someday, alongside fellow renters Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens and Nomar Garciaparra.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Jim Rice, Reggie Smith and Luis Tiant the only non-Caucasian players in the Boston Red Sox Hall of Fame?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/041592779X.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Vinnie4]

I am sure you know all the rest stops in Vermont. How are the Johnny Cakes Vincent... do you like them with hot maple syrup. Thats so sweet.
Wow, that was really biting. :rolleyes: Instead of addressing the fact that the Yankees captain has far better numbers than the Red Sox captain, not to mention 4 rings to 1, you decide to throw weak insults. Yet you still call Jeter a paper captain. And before you throw out the overrated nonsense, remember, these are people that are envious of his talent and money. How many of the players asked make the league minimum? And if you ask each of those polled players if they felt they are underpaid, every single one of them would say yes. Try asking MLB scouts, owners, managers, and past and current teammates of Jeter the same question. You won't have the same results.

[BlakChamber]

What's with the whole Johnny Cakes thing? I dont' get it.

[SmartassBoiler]

Pancakes with real maple syrup are delicious.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

I don't know man, pancakes are the most racist cakes I know of.

[Mark Weber]

What's with the whole Johnny Cakes thing? I dont' get it.

No one does. But it's easier than actually forming an articulate response.

Johnny cakes!! Heart and clutch! Many being manny. Steinbrenner's payroll, ummm New York players wo died...Tek and Papi - YANKEES SUCK!

[Stephanie14]

:) Funny

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

Thank you Mark for creating this thread. When I have a bad day I come on here and get a chuckle from all the Boston fans who can't form a sentence no less make a point.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Thank you Mark for creating this thread. When I have a bad day I come on here and get a chuckle from all the Boston fans who can't form a sentence no less make a point.

Let's not forget the total off the wall responses from Yankee fans involving racism and the retiring of numbers.:p

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

Let's not forget the total off the wall responses from Yankee fans involving racism and the retiring of numbers.:p
HeHe. I only read the Boston comments, except Bee's I have him on ignore. My apologies for the racist comments, those are uncalled for, if indeed they occur.

[BlakChamber]

HeHe. I only read the Boston comments, except Bee's I have him on ignore. My apologies for the racist comments, those are uncalled for, if indeed they occur.
Bee is way too entertaining to have on ignore. Besides, he doesn't seem like a bad guy. I've had toight on my ignore list for a while now. Makes reading the board better.

[Mark Weber]

Let's not forget the total off the wall responses from Yankee fans involving racism and the retiring of numbers.:p

The Red Sox had a long period in their history when they were considered the most racist organization in professional sports. Their rule of only retiring numbers for Cooperstown members has combined with their long-standing tradition of trading away great players (or letting them walk) to leave them only three retired numbers of Red Sox players.

I think both situations contribute to them being an organiztion that isn't worth rooting for.
It's my equivalent of saying "Red Sox Suck" it's just better defined and less stereotypical. How is that "off the wall" in the Yankees/Red Sox trash talking thread?

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

How is that "off the wall" in the Yankees/Red Sox trash talking thread?

Well, because you're basically doing the same thing you accuse all Red Sox fans of doing which is living in the past. I don't think how the Red Sox treated their players in the PAST has anything to do with how their organization should be judged in the PRESENT. But, hey, you're the mod and you'll probably ban me if I speak up too much so I'll shut up.

[robertbee]

I think both situations contribute to them being an organiztion that isn't worth rooting for.
It's my equivalent of saying "Red Sox Suck" it's just better defined and less stereotypical. How is that "off the wall" in the Yankees/Red Sox trash talking thread?

Race is not an issue with the current team. It has no bearing on the current owners.
Your attempt to taint them is wrong and weak. You had to go into the past when racism was rampant and a black eye on this country not just the Sox. Its been in every majoy sport, in the work place and now on the spawn board. I think its a low blow and a desprate attempt to make the Red Sox look bad. Its a form of racism.

Mark Weber likes to play the "race card" because it makes the Red Sox look bad. Its ancient history. It has nothing to do with the current organization. But he keeps beating the drum of racism.

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race</I> </I>
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination</I>


I hope one day race will not be an issue but we have people that like to use it to gain work, to use as arguments, by saying the are not worth routing for because of the past owner was racist his hostility towards the Sox racism is using this belief to push forward the argument that one's particular race (his team) is superior to the others by saying its not a team worthy to route for. by saying that he is discriminating against a class of people (Red Sox nation) and claiming he is superior to others. Trying to opress others. It is a controversial subjuct and as a moderator he should know better.

All Forms of Racial Discrimination
any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.. even if it is on the spawn board. Is wrong.


It's my equivalent of saying "Red Sox Suck"


No need to play the race card in order to say the Red Sox suck.



Wow, that was really biting. :rolleyes: Instead of addressing the fact that the Yankees captain has far better numbers than the Red Sox captain, not to mention 4 rings to 1, you decide to throw weak insults. Yet you still call Jeter a paper captain. And before you throw out the overrated nonsense, remember, these are people that are envious of his talent and money. How many of the players asked make the league minimum? And if you ask each of those polled players if they felt they are underpaid, every single one of them would say yes. Try asking MLB scouts, owners, managers, and past and current teammates of Jeter the same question. You won't have the same results.


Jeter eats Johnny Cakes as well. ;) Maybe you and Mark can get togetter and have a stats party since you guys love stats so much. Coffee and Johnny Cakes and stats. Kind of like a Yankee Tea party. Bust out all your Yankee sportspicks and sit around in your Yankee boxers and Yankee wife beters and maybe if your both crazy you can put on some white hoods and talk about the good ole days of the Red Sox.
:rolleyes:


And on closing this topic I just want to say the the Yankees Suck. :D

[Vinnie4]

Jeter eats Johnny Cakes as well. ;) Maybe you and Mark can get togetter and have a stats party since you guys love stats so much. Coffee and Johnny Cakes and stats. Kind of like a Yankee Tea party. Bust out all your Yankee sportspicks and sit around in your Yankee boxers and Yankee wife beters and maybe if your both crazy you can put on some white hoods and talk about the good ole days of the Red Sox.
:rolleyes:


And on closing this topic I just want to say the the Yankees Suck. :D

You bash Mark for bringing up racism, then you go and call me racist. Real class. Don't ever call me racist again. And your post gets my vote as the dumbest yet on this thread. Maybe to whole board. I bring up stats because that is what baseball is about, and the only true way to compare players/teams. You're an ignorant man, robertbee.

[Mark Weber]

Mark Weber likes to play the "race card" because it makes the Red Sox look bad. Its ancient history. It has nothing to do with the current organization. But he keeps beating the drum of racism.

bee, my three points why people shouldn't root for Boston are because they hardly ever win it all, there's a long period in their history when the Red Sox were considered the most racist organization in professional sports, and they hardly ever keep their best players. I've never accused the current ownership group or team management of continuing the racist standard set by the Yawkeys. You dig on the Yankee payroll, and I accept it - it's true that New York has (and has had for a long time) a fiscal advantage over every other club in MLB. I don't whine and cry that you "shouldn't bring salaries into this." It's a valid argument. Just like mine is.


Jeter eats Johnny Cakes as well. ;) Maybe you and Mark can get togetter and have a stats party since you guys love stats so much. Coffee and Johnny Cakes and stats. Kind of like a Yankee Tea party. Bust out all your Yankee sportspicks and sit around in your Yankee boxers and Yankee wife beters and maybe if your both crazy you can put on some white hoods and talk about the good ole days of the Red Sox.

bee, all I've ever said about you personally is that you're a blindly loyal fan who's chosen a favorite team that I don't think is worth rooting for. You're the only one on this thread making personal digs against people you disagree with. You just portrayed myself and another board member as members of the Ku Klux Klan. I think you owe us both an apology. If you've got any stones at all, your next post will be an admittal that you took things too far, and an honest request for forgiveness from us both.

It wouldn't make you any less of a Red Sox fan, or mean that you're accepting any part of the ongoing Yankees/Sox debate - it would just help you salvage some of the respect the entire board just lost for you.

[robertbee]

bee, my three points why people shouldn't root for Boston are becaue they hardly ever win it all, there's a long period in their history when the Red Sox were considered the most racist organization in professional sports, and they hardly ever keep their best players.

old ownership. So why shouldn't people be able to root for the new ownership? They have a winning track record. They have done wonders to the park. They think outside the box. They said they would make a top notch farm system and they are reaping the rewards of that. They may not be able to spend like the Yankees and they can not afford to make Yankee blunder after blunder but I do find that worth rooting for. This ownership has been positive for MLB and Red Sox fans and gernrel. They won a world series and will be competitive from here on in. I find it well worth rooting for. What team does keep thier best players? To be sucessful you need to set a limit on what you pay people Damon for example. 40 miillion wasn't enough. 52 Million of Yankee money filled in a hole in center and left. Sox could not go that high. Damon bolted for the cash. Its not that the Sox let players bolt. The players go for the loot. Nomar. turns down a 60 million contract and that bit him in the butt. Now that he is finally healthy he may reap a big contract. In todays economics its tough to keep anyone unless they are willing to take a home town discount as Papi has done. We hardly ever win at all? Its tough when you have the New York Yankees in your division. They got the resources in cash. have somewhat destroyed the farm system which use to be thier bread and butter. We hardly win and the Yankees win. I think that is worth routing for becase when we do win its earned and well worth it.

if I offened you 2... I am sorry. I did not bring up racism you did. That is why it should not have been brought up. It gets ugly when you use racism as a tool. I hope you learned something as well. This is not the place to "play the race card" which you have admitted doing. Its an ugly subject

[robertbee]

You bash Mark for bringing up racism, then you go and call me racist. Real class. Don't ever call me racist again. And your post gets my vote as the dumbest yet on this thread. Maybe to whole board. I bring up stats because that is what baseball is about, and the only true way to compare players/teams. You're an ignorant man, robertbee.

I never called you a racisit. If for some reason you feel that I did then I am sorry. What I said is..... (below) its a suggestion that's a far cry from calling you an out right racist Vincent.

and maybe if your both crazy you can put on some white hoods and talk about the good ole days of the Red Sox.


Think about. Maybe I should rephrase it and say. maybe you both can put on some Yankee hoodies and talk about the good ole days.

;)

[orionquest]

Wow, I leave the thread for a little while, and everything just goes insane! I really should know better.

First off, Robertbee, I love your heartfelt Sox enthusiasm, and I'm right there with you. I've loved this team in spite of them breaking my eight-year-old heart in 1978, and my father and grandfather loved them, too. I am proud to raise my son, due in September, as a Red Sox fan.

That said, take a couple of deep breaths and don't let all the emotion on the thread keep you from taking your time and reading. Fact is, Mark is making some good arguments, bringing up some valid points, and inspiring some great discussion. Give the credit where it is due, and take some time craft your responses. It's obvious not only how much you love the Red Sox, but how much you know about them. Take the bad with the good and focus on the facts. If someone gets under your skin, take the high road and represent Red Sox Nation with pride.

As a Red Sox fan, it's important to recognize an undisputible truth of the franchise's past. The Red Sox were a horribly, disgustingly racist organization. As far as I'm concerned, that was their real curse, not this Babe Ruth nonsense. They are the club that passed on Willie Mays only because of his skin color. Can everyone imagine how history would have been different if Mays backed up Williams or vice versa? And outfield of Mays, Williams and Dom DiMaggio would have been incredible. The past is the past, it must be acknowledged and accepted for what it was. But I think it's important to also recognize that a great percentage, maybe even a vast majority of Sox fans loved the team in spite of this, not because of it. If nothing else, that ridiculous bias handicapped the team substantially. The curse was due to inept and racist manangement, and the sooner the facts of that reality set in on Sox Nation, the better. It's not coincidental that the team won a Series just a few years removed from the dreadful Yawkeys.

Now Mark, I've read a good amount of the past few pages, but admittantly, not everything. Forgive me if I'm missing something here. You're a Yankee fan, and I think it's great that you celebrate the your team. They are the crown jewel of professional sports in America. They are the franchise that elevated professional team sports to what it is today. With that legacy comes both respect and disdain. I don't know if, as a Yankees fan, that you understand why that disdain comes about. Yes, it's jealousy, in part. But, it's more than that. There's a bravado, a c0ckiness in a great percentage of Yankees fans that has become near unbearable for other team's fans. And, for Red Sox fans most of all, it had become extremely difficult to handle until October 2004.

The fact that you would question *why* someone would be a Sox fan speaks a great deal of why Sox fans, and other teams fans, wonder why anyone would want to be a Yankees fan. My uncle summed it up as "Being a Yankees fan is easy. With the exception of the mid 1980's, they've always been competitive. They're always likely to win. Where's the thrill in cheering for that? That's like rooting for the house in Vegas."

I'm sorry if rooting for the team that never quite gets there is a thrill that you don't understand. Inheriting that "burden"may seem cruel, but we have worn it like a badge. And, in 2004, it paid off in a way that most fan bases may never quite understand. The atmosphere on Tremont Street the day of the parade was a joyous high I, or almost all sports fans, doubt we will ever experience again. And I can say with confidence that when World Series victory number 27 comes to New York, it can never come near that level.

Also, you've pointed out a number of times that the team has one World Series win in 88 years. This is where the Sox fans sees it differently. We look ahead. We have to, since we've been trained that way. Yankees fans can look back, it's about celebration. Red Sox fans look ahead, because it's about faith. Sure, we've been obsessed with the stumbles of our past, but it never meant that we felt that the payoff would never come. We see one championship, and more to come. Will they? Who knows. But "Wait Till Next Year", the mantra no Yankees fan could ever understand, has become "One down... more to come." Whether or not it happens is irrelevant. It's about the ride.


As for celebrating past players, every team does what you've described. How long was Reggie Jackson on the Yankees? He was rented, and he come through and accomplished what he was brought aboard to do. By the same respect, should we not celebrate Jim Lomborg or Rico Petricelli for the 1967 Impossible Dream, or Tony Conigliaro for his brief, meteoric rise? The Indians, Cubs, White Sox, and other teams that traditionally struggled celebrate their legacies, too. Why discount ours because there weren't championships along the way? The fans love the players regardless, and that's the issue at hand.

At the end of the day, we're all blessed. We share the greatest, most celebrated, most debated, most heated and most famous rivalry in all of professional sports. Those of us caught on either side of it should consider ourselves lucky.

After all, we could have been raised Royals fans. ;)

[fenwayp]

bee, all I've ever said about you personally is that you're a blindly loyal fan who's chosen a favorite team that I don't think is worth rooting for.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
No effort is ever required to convince anybody that the Yankees are not worth rooting for...what kind of a statement is this, Mark ? How is it that the Red Sox are "not worth rooting for" ?? Because they used to be what some considered to be a "racist" organization ? Baseball as an entity could be considered a "racist" institution if you base it on your criteria of past musings...

what about the NHL ? Is that a racist league also ? Look at how many caucasians vs. african americans there are there...does that make it racist ? Does it make the NHL not worth following ?

Personally, I think your whole argument is poor on this matter. Look at the way the Red Sox are today. Are they "racist" ? Do they discriminate against minorities in any way whatsoever ? NO.

So why don't we just drop this whole topic and discuss BASEBALL.

I'm out.

[fenwayp]

The fact that you would question *why* someone would be a Sox fan speaks a great deal of why Sox fans, and other teams fans, wonder why anyone would want to be a Yankees fan.

Exactly...good post, by the way. I agree wholeheartedly with virtually every point.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

LOL, Wang Chun is such a funny pitcher. He throws these pseudo temper tantrums after he gives up homeruns.

[Mark Weber]

I appreciate the apology bee - I think you just got a little carried away.

What I'm talking about when I criticize Boston for letting their Legends get away isn't just a money/ free agency thing - and come on, how often does Boston get outbid for a player they truly want to keep? Johnny Damon is a pretty rare exception.

The 38 players in the "Boston Red Sox Hall of Fame" break down into four distinct categories:

CAREER RED SOX or "BOSTON LIFERS" (9)
Dom DiMaggio, Bobby Doerr, Dave Ferriss, Mel Parnell, Rico Petrocelli, Jim Rice, Bob Stanley, Ted Williams & Carl Yastrzemski. (Mike Greenwell should join this list soon).

PLAYERS ACQUIRED BY BOSTON WHO STAYED 'TIL RETIREMENT (3)
Joe Cronin, Lefty Grove & Jackie Jensen.

PLAYERS BOSTON RELEASED OR WHO LEFT VIA FREE AGENCY (8)
Dwight Evans, Larry Gardner & Frank Malzone (these guys had just one fading season in another team's uniform). Wade Boggs, Carlton Fisk, Jimmie Foxx, Bruce Hurst and Luis Tiant played for other teams for at least two seasons after leaving Boston. (Roger Clemens, Pedro Martinez & Derek Lowe should join this list eventually).

PLAYERS BOSTON TRADED AWAY(17)
Rick Burleson, Jimmy Collins, Tony Conigliaro, Dennis Eckersley, Rick Ferrell, Billy Goodman, Harry Hooper, Jim Lonborg, Fred Lynn, Bill Monbouquette, Johnny Pesky, D. Radatz, Pete Runnels, Babe Ruth, Reggie Smith, Tris Sepaker & Joe Wood. (Nomar Garciaparra and maybe Bronson Arroyo could join this list).

The one guy I can't figure out is Cy Young. He pitched his last season for the Red Sox in 1908 (in 21-11) and then appeared in Cleveland in 1909. Was he traded to Cleveland or did he just sign there??

Anyway, my point is that free agency and the Yankee wallet has had very little to do with so many great players leaving Boston.

[robertbee]

The past is the past, it must be acknowledged and accepted for what it was.

Key word....WAS.

Thank you Orionquest. You speak the truth and as always put things in perspective. On this note I can finally rest and move forward. In a nut shell you summed it all up eloquently. My hat goes off to you.

Cheers

[robertbee]

And Manny Just took it yard for a 3 run dinger. Manny being Manny :)

[fenwayp]

On a lighter note, wouldn't it be amusing if the Marlins swept the Yankees this weekend ?

[fenwayp]

And Manny Just took it yard for a 3 run dinger. Manny being Manny :)

:D :D :cool:

[Jhazon]

I just waste several minutes of my life reading some of the trash on this thread. I dislike the Yankees for the simple fact that they are the jelly to the Red Sox being the peanut butter... everyone thinks they have to go together.I personally like my peanut butter sandwiches with only bananas.

"Look at me, I'm better than you, look at my trophy shelf.", said Mr. Yankee
"Your shelf is made out of wood... it's slowing rotting away", said Mr. Bosox

[Jhazon]

And Manny Just took it yard for a 3 run dinger. Manny being Manny :)

..speaking of Manny, is his figure being delayed? It was schedule for July but I don't see it on the 2006 release list anymore?

[robertbee]

Anyway, my point is that free agency and the Yankee wallet has had very little to do with so many great players leaving Boston.

I don't have an answer to way players leave for you Mark. Its wasn't easy seeing Clemens leave. When my Mother told me on the phone I didn't beleive her. I was upset. Once I saw the news it was tough to swallow. Very tough. Letting Fisk go, Lynn, Rooster, players who I would pretend to be as a child was confusing. Why did they leave. Its something out of my hands. All I can do is accept it. Thorthon and Sammy are the latest. We have had out share of players leave. Curtis Martain, Drew Bledsoe. Some turn out good some turn out bad. The money is sports has trumped loyalty as it does in daily life. People sell out to the highest bidder. Money is the downfall of man. It creates more problems. I think the Indians may have had it right with everyone being equal and one chief.

[robertbee]

"Look at me, I'm better than you, look at my trophy shelf.", said Mr. Yankee
"Your shelf is made out of wood... it's slowing rotting away", said Mr. Bosox
Jhazon


Now that is brilliant:D

[ToightLikeATiger]

Boggs and Clemens are the 2 players i really was hurt to see go. Both were run out of town by Dan Duquette because "they were past their prime"

Now Boggs did have a down year before he left Boston but he was still better then anyone the Redsox replaced him with.

Clemens... well lets just say look at him now.

Dan Duquette was a horrible GM and casted some Sox legends off too soon.

Once again though free agency has played a big part in it. Before free agency the Redsox had players that stayed. After just like all other teams players left.

There really hasnt been a guy lately who should have stayed his whole career with the Redsox. People though Nomar would but he turned out to be a cancer to the team. He got cut off and the Redsox won when he left.

Pedro was gone not because he didnt like Boston but because the Mets offered more money. Plus Petey didnt want to play second fiddle to Schilling for another year.

Free Agency has made it tough to keep players for a long period of time. Just like in all the other sports.

Arguing that the Redsox are a "rest stop" because free agency is just a pathetic and desperate argument. Every team could be called a "rest stop"

Its how things are.

[Mark Weber]

So Tiger, it doesn't bother you that there are 17 members of the "Red Sox Hall of Fame" that the team chose to trade away? These guys: Rick Burleson, Jimmy Collins, Tony Conigliaro, Dennis Eckersley, Rick Ferrell, Billy Goodman, Harry Hooper, Jim Lonborg, Fred Lynn, Bill Monbouquette, Johnny Pesky, D. Radatz, Pete Runnels, Babe Ruth, Reggie Smith, Tris Speaker & Joe Wood.

Historically, Boston's best players have either left the team or been traded away. Isn't that frustrating on some level, or do you cheer for the jersey and not really the guy wearing it?

[orionquest]

Mark, again, I'm still confused. Why is the notion that the Red Sox have watched many of their stars leave, by choice or not, such an issue for you? Is the issue that they're honored after departure? Or that the fans base still supports them?

This is an issue for EVERY team except the Yankees. The Yankees have always been the only team that has the funds to keep players around after their prime. If a Yankee on the roster doesn't perform up to expectations, another one will be found by trade or free agnecy. Most other clubs don't have that luxury, and none have it to the extent the Yankees do. On any other team in MLB, Bernie Williams would have been traded or released. No other team, including the high-spending Red Sox, Angels, mets or Dodgers would have kept both Williams and Damon on the same roster.

Perhaps you just aren't used to it. But ask the fans of any other team, and they'll explain the frustration that they've always lived with.

But, also, consider this- how many of the players you mention have embraced the Red Sox and Boston fan base in their years after playing? Eckersley, Lynn, Radatz and Lonborg always felt close to Boston, and show up frequently at events. Eck does post-game analysis for the team. Pesky is a Red Sox institution, and watching him receving his ring made the toughest of grown men cry on Opening Day 2005.

Besides, plenty of famous Yankees, including Babe-freakin'-Ruth himself, didn't end their careers in the Bronx. Ruth finished in Boston, oddly enough, with the Braves. Reggie Jackson played for the Angels. Yogi Berra coached the Mets. Roger Maris went to St. Louis. Casey Stengel played for different teams before managing the Yankees. Boggs hopped off to Tampa. The Rocket and Petite snuck out to Houston. Many of your clubs icons aren't Mantle-DiMaggio type nothin'-but-Yankees. Historically, do the departures of Ruth, Maris and Jackson bother Yankees fans?

[robertbee]

But, also, consider this- how many of the players you mention have embraced the Red Sox and Boston fan base in their years after playing? Eckersley, Lynn, Radatz and Lonborg always felt close to Boston, and show up frequently at events. Eck does post-game analysis for the team. Pesky is a Red Sox institution, and watching him receving his ring made the toughest of grown men cry on Opening Day 2005.

orionquest


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/IMG_0106.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/?)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/IMG_0103.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/?)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/IMG_0112.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/?)
The players in front of the Green Monster are Red Sox greats that have come back to share the special day. It was a great day seeing the banner raised by past and present players.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/IMG_0137.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/?)
More Red Sox greats just because they don't have thier numbers retired or have been traded doesn't mean they are gone for good. Boston will always be in thier hearts. Its a special place to play and that comes from alot of ex players.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/IMG_0121.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/?)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/IMG_0127-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/?)

And lets not forget who got the loudest ovation that day. #42 Mariano Riveria. He tipped his cap to the crowd. It was a great moment in baseball. Classic and Classy. He won me over that day. I use to dislike that man as much as I do Posada.

. Opening day 2005. What a day it was!

[spyxops]

And lets not forget who got the loudest ovation that day. #42 Mariano Riveria. He tipped his cap to the crowd. It was a great moment in baseball. Classic and Classy. He won me over that day. I use to dislike that man as much as I do Posada.

. Opening day 2005. What a day it was!
bah i love thos guys :D

[ToightLikeATiger]

So Tiger, it doesn't bother you that there are 17 members of the "Red Sox Hall of Fame" that the team chose to trade away? These guys: Rick Burleson, Jimmy Collins, Tony Conigliaro, Dennis Eckersley, Rick Ferrell, Billy Goodman, Harry Hooper, Jim Lonborg, Fred Lynn, Bill Monbouquette, Johnny Pesky, D. Radatz, Pete Runnels, Babe Ruth, Reggie Smith, Tris Speaker & Joe Wood.

Historically, Boston's best players have either left the team or been traded away. Isn't that frustrating on some level, or do you cheer for the jersey and not really the guy wearing it?

its part of the business Mark. and i have learned to live with it. i cheer for the guys wearing it of course. I still like Roger Clemens.... i liked Wade Boggs when he left. Just because they leave doesnt mean they werent great Redsox players.

i am a baseball fan and smart enough to realize its a business.

once again i dont see why you are trying to argue something that doesnt bother people. Yankees are the same exact way. But im not bashing the Yankees because they let people go. Its not something that isnt expected.

Do you think for 1 minute if Derek Jeter starts to decline in production that George Steinbrenner wouldnt replace him with a better player if available? Sure he would. George wouldnt bring back Andy Pettitte who was a big part of their championship runs. Why? because George thought he was declining and could replace him with someone better.

Its the way of baseball. Tino Martinez was sent off... they brought in Jason Giambi. Tino Martinez was a good Yankees player with class. Giambi isnt even close to that. but he is a bigger star with better numbers.

its just the way it is Mark. You can keep trying to bash the redsox for losing players but it happens to ALL teams.

[Mavrik28]

Pesky blew the 1946 World Series and gets treated with class. But Buckner makes 1 bad play in a tied game that the Red Sox pitchers mucked up and he and his family get terrorized. Red Sox fans are so ungrateful. Then again, Red Sox fans did boo Yaz during the 1975 season.

Speaking of 1975, that reminds of the World Series. The Red Sox lost game 7 in Fenway Park 4 to 3. They had a 3-0 lead in that game. All 4 runs scored by the Reds were with 2 outs. Including the Red Sox giving up the winning run in the top of the 9th with 2 outs. Ouch.

The recently released box set of this classic Red Sox gag job in the World Series is available on DVD.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Big Papi does it AGAIN in the clutch!!!

hey Mark. put that in your pipe and smoke it! overrated? hahahaha you wish!

leads the league in go ahead RBI's

[Mark Weber]

Here’s my point about keeping “Legends” on your team throughout history. To me, there’s nothing like a kid who comes up from the minors, debuts with your favorite team and goes onto a great career (hopefully a lifetime career with your team). I’m sure Red Sox fans are a little more excited about the emergent dominance of Papelbon than they were when they signed Keith Foulke. No offense to Foulke (one of the true stars of the Boston championship in 2004), but a homegrown talent is always more exciting than a guy you trade for or sign through free agency. Part of that is youth – a homegrown talent usually has more years ahead of him than a traded guy or a free agent signee, and there’s some benefit to having never seen the player in another team’s jersey.

Maybe it’s just my own personal bias, but my hierarchy of “player types” go like this:

1. Homegrown talent who stays with the team for his entire career.

2. Homegrown talent who leaves at the very tail end of his career.
3. Player who is signed or acquired via trade who stays for several years and retires with the team.
4. Homegrown talent who is traded away and spends several years for other teams.

5. Player who is signed or acquired via trade and leaves after a few years to spend significant time with other teams.

So I went through the Yankees and Red Sox all-time records, and the MLB Hall of Fame and put together rough lists of the top 50 all-time players for both teams. I split the players into these five categories, giving current players the benefit of the doubt across the board. For example: I credited Varitek as a homegrown Red Sox player – since he was acquired as a prospect – who retires with the team, and David Ortiz/Manny Ramirez as players who were acquired but retired as Red Sox. Similarly, I credited guys like Jeter and Posada as lifetime Yankees.

HOMEGROWN “LIFERS” (Category #1)

BOSTON (11): Ted Williams, Mike Greenwell, Dom DiMaggio, Jim Rice, Carl Yastrzemski, Bobby Doerr, Rico Petrocelli, Trot Nixon, Jason Varitek, Mel Parnell & Bob Stanley.

NEW YORK (19): Mickey Mantle, Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, Bernie Williams, Thurman Munson, Frank Crosetti, Phil Rizzuto, Don Mattingly, Bill ****ey, Derek Jeter, Roy White, Earle Combs, Jorge Posada, Tommy Henrich, Whitey Ford, Ron Guidry, Mel Stottlemyre, Spud Chandler & Mariano Rivera.

HOMEGROWN WHO LEFT AT THE TAIL END (Category #2)

BOSTON (3): Dwight Evans, Frank Malzone & Joe Wood.

NEW YORK (7): Yogi Berra, Hank Bauer, Tony Lazzeri, Bob Meusel, Charlie Keller, Lefty Gomez & Johnny Murphy.

ACQUIRED & RETIRED WITH THE TEAM (Category #3)

BOSTON (6): Manny Ramirez, Joe Cronin, Jackie Jensen, David Ortiz, Tim Wakefield & Lefty Grove.

NEW YORK (6): Paul O’Neill, Lou Piniella, Bob Shawkey, Allie Reynolds, Jack Chesbro & Ed Lopat.

HOMEGROWN PLAYER WHO LEFT OR WAS TRADED AWAY (Category #4)

BOSTON (21): Wade Boggs, Tris Speaker, Nomar Garciaparra, Johnny Pesky, Billy Goodman, Mo Vaughn, Tony Conigliaro, Fred Lynn, Carlton Fisk, Reggie Smith, George Scott, Duffy Lewis, Harry Hooper, Roger Clemens, Bill Monbouquette, Babe Ruth, Bill Lee, Dutch Leonard, D. Radatz, Bruce Hurst & Jim Lonborg.

NEW YORK (6): Elston Howard, Bobby Murcer, Andy Pettitte, Fritz Peterson, Vic Raschi & Dave Righetti.

ACQUIRED PLAYERS WHO BAILED & SPENT SIGNIFICANT TIME WITH ANOTHER TEAM (Category #5)

BOSTON (9): Jimmie Foxx, Pete Runnels, Rick Ferrell, Jimmy Collins, Cy Young, Luis Tiant, Pedro Martinez, Joe Dobson & Derek Lowe.

NEW YORK (12): Babe Ruth, Willie Randolph, Reggie Jackson, Dave Winfield, Roger Maris, Tino Martinez, Graig Nettles, Red Ruffing, Herb Pennock, Waite Hoyt, Sparky Lyle & Goose Gossage.

Looking through this list it occurs to me that the “rest stop” moniker I’ve hung on Boston isn’t truly because of free agents/traded players who end up leaving, it’s due to Boston shipping their own homegrown talent away. It’s not due to free agency really, since 19 of the 30 players who left or were traded away made their exit prior to the advent of open free agency.

[Hardcore Legend]

Is hitting for the hometeam in a tied game in extra innings 'clutch'? If he doesn't come through there, the game continues...they don't lose.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Is hitting for the hometeam in a tied game in extra innings 'clutch'? If he doesn't come through there, the game continues...they don't lose.

He won the game, it's not that complicated.

[fenwayp]

How's life in 2nd Place, YANKEE FANS :D :D

[BlakChamber]

Isn't Manny only in the "retire as a Red Sox" catagory because no other team wanted to take his contract, you know, when the Red Sox tried to trade him and place him on waivers?

[Hardcore Legend]

He won the game, it's not that complicated.

Where is the pressure? He has a safety net of the 11th inning. Hitting it in the 10th is no different than hitting it in a tie game in the 7th inning, as far as 'clutchness'.

[Mavrik28]

Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada. All are homegrown Yankees that are going to retire as Yankees. Jeter and Mo are going to the Hall of Fame. All four will have their numbers retired by the Yankees.

There are ZERO homegrown players on the Red Sox that you can say the same thing about.

[JaysFan99]

Yankees are pathetic, they need a payroll twice as big a the average team, to get a few more wins. Must be idiots running that organization. You think with all that money you would gurantee a championship!

[Hardcore Legend]

Yankees are pathetic, they need a payroll twice as big a the average team, to get a few more wins. Must be idiots running that organization. You think with all that money you would gurantee a championship!

Please tell me a Blue Jays fan just chastised the Yankees for 'over-spending' for a few more wins.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

You can triple the Blue Jays payroll before they're on the same playing field as the Yankees. It's not even close, Hardcore.

[Mavrik28]

Yankees are pathetic, they need a payroll twice as big a the average team, to get a few more wins. Must be idiots running that organization. You think with all that money you would gurantee a championship!

Instead a team like the Blow Jays are rocket scientists for signing a guy with a bad arm in AJ Burnett.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

It's too early to judge the AJ Burnett deal, now the Carl Pavano deal, that's a blunder.

[Roper]

now the Carl Pavano deal, that's a blunder.

Hey now, it's hard to pitch if you have a bruised butt.

[Roper]

It's too early to judge the AJ Burnett deal, now the Carl Pavano deal, that's a blunder.

c'mon, giving $55 million to a guy with a history of arm issues like he does was not smart. They overpaid for him, just like the Mets overpaid for Billy Wagner.

It happens.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

c'mon, giving $55 million to a guy with a history of arm issues like he does was not smart. They overpaid for him, just like the Mets overpaid for Billy Wagner.

It happens.

Yeah, but that's baseball. There's no other sport out there where player salaries are on such a sharp increase, you want talent, you got to pay for it.

[Roper]

Yeah, but that's baseball. There's no other sport out there where player salaries are on such a sharp increase, you want talent, you got to pay for it.

Exactly. Plus if I'm not mistaken, don't the Blue Jays have to overpay for talent because they have to pay their players in American dollars, not Canadian. I think I heard that somewhere.

[ToightLikeATiger]

funny how Mark posted but totally ignored the fact David Ortiz proved his statements wrong yet again.

good job Mark of tucking your tail and running away.

i wont say too much more im likely to get banned for making you look bad even more.

[JaysFan99]

You can triple the Blue Jays payroll before they're on the same playing field as the Yankees. It's not even close, Hardcore

Sure, 200 million dollars right hahah! How do you justify spending that much money, and not winning the World Series every year. SImply ridiculous.

Yes and Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright were steals ! lol

[fenwayp]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060624/capt.e2518edc64db422d9942d0e99b0872c0.phillies_red_sox_baseball_mamd108.jpg
:eek: :D PAPI DOES IT AGAIN...

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060624/capt.5823fa9b14ab4effa7eb6d50d6fe6cd1.phillies_red_sox_baseball_mamd109.jpg
...and how's this for some HOMEGROWN TALENT :D
Papelbon lowered his ERA from 0.25 to 0.24 :eek: HOLY CRAP !!!
He is a STUD !! He blows doors on Rivera this year. Not a better closer in the game.
He has been simply untouchable !!!

GO SOX !!!!
8 IN A ROW, BABY !!!!!!!!!!

[Yukoner]

Exactly. Plus if I'm not mistaken, don't the Blue Jays have to overpay for talent because they have to pay their players in American dollars, not Canadian. I think I heard that somewhere.

That doesn't make sense. Perhaps what you mean is that the Jays have to make more income to pay the same salaries because payroll is in USD. They have to earn $1.10 CDN to pay out $1.00 USD.

[Yukoner]

Where is the pressure? He has a safety net of the 11th inning. Hitting it in the 10th is no different than hitting it in a tie game in the 7th inning, as far as 'clutchness'.

Dude, that's just dumb.

[BlakChamber]

I have to agree with Hardcore actually.

Hitting a three run homer when your team is down two = clutch. What Ortiz did today is somewhere in the grey area between regular hitting and clutch hitting. Besides, according to Moneyball, there really isn't such a thing as clutch hitting.

[fenwayp]

What Ortiz did today is somewhere in the grey area between regular hitting and clutch hitting.

Where does that put AFraud, then...somewhere in the grey area between extraneous hitting and pointless hitting ? :D

I'll take BIG PAPI, whatever you want to call it...over AFraud ANY day !

[BlakChamber]

^^^
I'm not an ARod fan. If I had to pick any Yankee to be on my team,it would be either Jeter or Mario. The Tigs need a real closer.

Hell, I'd love if Ortiz was a Tiger. I'd kill for a left handed DH right now :D

[fenwayp]

I'm not an ARod fan.

Is there ANYONE who actually IS an AFraud fan ?
:D

[BlakChamber]

His mother.

Maybe :D

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Moneyball is stupid, logic doesn't apply to all aspects of sports.

[Hardcore Legend]

You can triple the Blue Jays payroll before they're on the same playing field as the Yankees. It's not even close, Hardcore.

For 2008, if they keep them:

Burnett 12 million
Glaus 12.5 million
Halladay 10 million
Ryan 10 million

$44.5 million for 2 starters, a closer, and an outfielder?

For 2008, Yankees contracts:
Damon 13 million
Matsui 13 million
Pavano 11 million
Jeter 19 million
Giambi 21 million
$77 million for 1 starter, 1B, SS, LF and CF.


Rodriguez 27 million. That's not a deal the Yankees made, but a contract they took on. Even still, that's $104 million on 6 players.

The Yankees payroll is free of the big contracts, sans those for the 2008 season. They have less holes to plug in. They have Wang and Cano that won't be commanding anything over $5 million a year in those season, if they are even arbitration eligible at that point.

However, look at the Jays payroll this season. $71 million. Do you think they are going to be able to sign the other 21 players needed to fill out the roster with 22 million? Of course not. That doesn't even take into account that Wells is a free agent. Think he will command anything less than $10 million, especially with what the Jays have been throwing around? Now you are looking at atleast $54 million for 5 players. 12 million for 20 players?

Those deals only get heavier as time goes on for the Blue Jays, especially if Burnett never throws an inning. It's guaranteed money, too.

3 times as much is a bit of an overstatement. I'm sure the Yankees will spend, spend, spend to fill in the holes they need. However, if last years 57.3% increase of Blue Jays payroll was any indication, they are more than likely to do the same. The gap isn't as big as it once was.

[Hardcore Legend]

Dude, that's just dumb.

I'm not saying what he did wasn't awesome to watch. I just don't see it as another of his 'clutch performances'.

[robertbee]

Wow, I leave the thread for a little while, and everything just goes insane! I really should know better.

First off, Robertbee, I love your heartfelt Sox enthusiasm, and I'm right there with you. I've loved this team in spite of them breaking my eight-year-old heart in 1978, and my father and grandfather loved them, too. I am proud to raise my son, due in September, as a Red Sox fan.

That said, take a couple of deep breaths and don't let all the emotion on the thread keep you from taking your time and reading. Fact is, Mark is making some good arguments, bringing up some valid points, and inspiring some great discussion. Give the credit where it is due, and take some time craft your responses. It's obvious not only how much you love the Red Sox, but how much you know about them. Take the bad with the good and focus on the facts. If someone gets under your skin, take the high road and represent Red Sox Nation with pride.

As a Red Sox fan, it's important to recognize an undisputible truth of the franchise's past. The Red Sox were a horribly, disgustingly racist organization. As far as I'm concerned, that was their real curse, not this Babe Ruth nonsense. They are the club that passed on Willie Mays only because of his skin color. Can everyone imagine how history would have been different if Mays backed up Williams or vice versa? And outfield of Mays, Williams and Dom DiMaggio would have been incredible. The past is the past, it must be acknowledged and accepted for what it was. But I think it's important to also recognize that a great percentage, maybe even a vast majority of Sox fans loved the team in spite of this, not because of it. If nothing else, that ridiculous bias handicapped the team substantially. The curse was due to inept and racist manangement, and the sooner the facts of that reality set in on Sox Nation, the better. It's not coincidental that the team won a Series just a few years removed from the dreadful Yawkeys.

Now Mark, I've read a good amount of the past few pages, but admittantly, not everything. Forgive me if I'm missing something here. You're a Yankee fan, and I think it's great that you celebrate the your team. They are the crown jewel of professional sports in America. They are the franchise that elevated professional team sports to what it is today. With that legacy comes both respect and disdain. I don't know if, as a Yankees fan, that you understand why that disdain comes about. Yes, it's jealousy, in part. But, it's more than that. There's a bravado, a c0ckiness in a great percentage of Yankees fans that has become near unbearable for other team's fans. And, for Red Sox fans most of all, it had become extremely difficult to handle until October 2004.

The fact that you would question *why* someone would be a Sox fan speaks a great deal of why Sox fans, and other teams fans, wonder why anyone would want to be a Yankees fan. My uncle summed it up as "Being a Yankees fan is easy. With the exception of the mid 1980's, they've always been competitive. They're always likely to win. Where's the thrill in cheering for that? That's like rooting for the house in Vegas."

I'm sorry if rooting for the team that never quite gets there is a thrill that you don't understand. Inheriting that "burden"may seem cruel, but we have worn it like a badge. And, in 2004, it paid off in a way that most fan bases may never quite understand. The atmosphere on Tremont Street the day of the parade was a joyous high I, or almost all sports fans, doubt we will ever experience again. And I can say with confidence that when World Series victory number 27 comes to New York, it can never come near that level.

Also, you've pointed out a number of times that the team has one World Series win in 88 years. This is where the Sox fans sees it differently. We look ahead. We have to, since we've been trained that way. Yankees fans can look back, it's about celebration. Red Sox fans look ahead, because it's about faith. Sure, we've been obsessed with the stumbles of our past, but it never meant that we felt that the payoff would never come. We see one championship, and more to come. Will they? Who knows. But "Wait Till Next Year", the mantra no Yankees fan could ever understand, has become "One down... more to come." Whether or not it happens is irrelevant. It's about the ride.


As for celebrating past players, every team does what you've described. How long was Reggie Jackson on the Yankees? He was rented, and he come through and accomplished what he was brought aboard to do. By the same respect, should we not celebrate Jim Lomborg or Rico Petricelli for the 1967 Impossible Dream, or Tony Conigliaro for his brief, meteoric rise? The Indians, Cubs, White Sox, and other teams that traditionally struggled celebrate their legacies, too. Why discount ours because there weren't championships along the way? The fans love the players regardless, and that's the issue at hand.

At the end of the day, we're all blessed. We share the greatest, most celebrated, most debated, most heated and most famous rivalry in all of professional sports. Those of us caught on either side of it should consider ourselves lucky.

After all, we could have been raised Royals fans. ;)



Some good points brought up.....:spawnorb:

[Hardcore Legend]

First off, Robertbee, I love your heartfelt Sox enthusiasm, and I'm right there with you. I've loved this team in spite of them breaking my eight-year-old heart in 1978, and my father and grandfather loved them, too. I am proud to raise my son, due in September, as a Red Sox fan.


I'm sorry, I don't read this thread very much (sans the last few days), but did you just say you were with yourself?

[orionquest]

I'm sorry, I don't read this thread very much (sans the last few days), but did you just say you were with yourself?

HL, to defend RB, he was actually quoting my previous post. I think he mixed up the tage in his replay and made it look like he wrote it by accident.

[orionquest]

HOMEGROWN PLAYER WHO LEFT OR WAS TRADED AWAY (Category #4)

BOSTON (21): Wade Boggs, Tris Speaker, Nomar Garciaparra, Johnny Pesky, Billy Goodman, Mo Vaughn, Tony Conigliaro, Fred Lynn, Carlton Fisk, Reggie Smith, George Scott, Duffy Lewis, Harry Hooper, Roger Clemens, Bill Monbouquette, Babe Ruth, Bill Lee, Dutch Leonard, D. Radatz, Bruce Hurst & Jim Lonborg.

NEW YORK (6): Elston Howard, Bobby Murcer, Andy Pettitte, Fritz Peterson, Vic Raschi & Dave Righetti.

ACQUIRED PLAYERS WHO BAILED & SPENT SIGNIFICANT TIME WITH ANOTHER TEAM (Category #5)

BOSTON (9): Jimmie Foxx, Pete Runnels, Rick Ferrell, Jimmy Collins, Cy Young, Luis Tiant, Pedro Martinez, Joe Dobson & Derek Lowe.

NEW YORK (12): Babe Ruth, Willie Randolph, Reggie Jackson, Dave Winfield, Roger Maris, Tino Martinez, Graig Nettles, Red Ruffing, Herb Pennock, Waite Hoyt, Sparky Lyle & Goose Gossage.

Mark, thanks for clarifying your point. I've always appreciated your thoughtful responses, and I've been confused over the past couple of posts.

Now, I don't have the time to do an in-depth study of the concept that your describing as it would hold to all of the teams with histories of forty years or more. (I'm considering the Mets, Astros and Angels as examples of the cut off point, versus the Blue Jays, Mariners or Diamonbacks, for instance.) But, I'm confident that the Yankees would greatly outweigh everey other franchise in catagoty four, especially when taken as a precentage of the players that have passed through based on years in the league.

The Yankees have always been the exception to the rule of how the business of baseball works. The combination of playing for the largest market and fanbase, combined with solid management and ownership for four or five generations, have allowed for that. Admittantly, I don't have the stats to back it up, but I'm confident that the Cubs, Cardinals, White Sox, Giants, Dodgers, Orioles, Pirates, Phillies and Athletics have numbers for their #4 tier players much closer to the Red Sox.

Now, I do like your heirarchy system, but I don't think it holds universally for all players. While the depature of a few, like Boggs and Clemens, still feel bitter to some, others, like Fred Lynn, Tony Conigliaro, Bill Lee, Jim Lonborg, Carlton Fisk and Dwight Evans, are remembered by the Red Sox fans base strictly as Sox. No bitterness or animosity has ever been present towards those players for their departure, and that says a lot considering that Fisk played longer in Chicago than Boston. And while tempers flare hot for Pedro right now (especially since he's due in Fenway on Wednesday), I'm confident that he will be embraced fondly in a few years. And all of those players will be more beloved than Bob Stanley, who falls into catagory #1.

I agree that their is something truly special about the players who come in and leave with your team. It will be a special day in New York and Derek and Mo and Jorge all step down after the incredible run they've had and continue to enjoy. But it doesn't always refect the player's legacy.

The greatest example is the player I think you left off, who squarely belongs in catagory #3: Curt Schilling. Regardless of his short time in Boston, he's made in indelible (blood) mark on the franchise and the city. His legacy in Boston will endure in spite of all that time in Philidelphia and Arizona. Maybe it's karma for playing in the Red Sox farm system.

[Mark Weber]

funny how Mark posted but totally ignored the fact David Ortiz proved his statements wrong yet again.

good job Mark of tucking your tail and running away.

i wont say too much more im likely to get banned for making you look bad even more.

What have you done to make me look bad Tiger? Remember that time you totally "pulled the rug out" from under me by bringing up Pumpsie Green 11 days after I did? That was awesome...

I've never disputed that David Ortiz is probably the best hitter in baseball today (possibly Pujols can enter the argument too). What I said is that Ortiz's numbers with runners on and in Close & Late situations this season haven't lived up to his normal standards. Since you can't seem to grasp what I said, let me try to base it down for you one more time:

Here are Ortiz's numbers from his four seasons in Boston.

2003: Hit .288, with a .273 average with RISP & a .306 average in Close & Late at-bats
2004: Hit .301, with a .350 average with RISP & a .324 average in Close & Late at-bats
2005: Hit .300, with a .352 average with RISP & a .346 average in Close & Late at-bats
2006: Hit .267, with a .279 average with RISP & a .231 average in Close & Late at-bats

It's hard to quantify Ortiz as struggling in Close & Late situations, when his 5 homers and 12 RBI in those situations both lead the team. TRying to figure this out, I looked at his five "Close & Late" homers.

4/13: Ortiz hits a 2-run HR in the 8th inning that cuts Toronto's lead from 8-1 to 8-3. Boston rallies for three more runs in the 9th inning, but Ortiz flies out with MArk Loretta on base to end the game. Toronto wins 8-6.

5/1: Ortiz mashes a 3-run HR off Mike Myers in the 8th inning to extend Boston's 4-3 lead to 7-3 over New York. The Red Sox dump the Yankees 7-3.

5/17: Ortiz hits a 2-run HR in the 9th inning as Boston falls to Baltimore 4-3.

6/11: Ortiz hits a 3-run walkoff HR in the ninth inning as Boston shocks Texas 5-4.

6/24: Ortiz hits a 2-run walkoff HR in the 10th inning as Boston dumps Philly 5-3.

Of note is that Boston lost two of the five games Ortiz hit a "Close & Late" homer in - including the April 13th game where he flied out to end the game as the tying run. I think Ortiz's penchant for the unbelievable "clutch" home run (like the shot vs. Texas and yesterday's vs. Philly) have helped overshadow his overall struggles at the plate in "Close & Late" situations so far this season. Five of his 12 "Close & Late" RBI have come on those two homers. There are nine Red Sox with higher batting averages in Close & Late situations: Pena, Cora, Youkilis, Loretta, Nixon, Lowell, Varitek, Ramirez, & Crisp.

Now Tiger, Ortiz's numbers are climbing and I really doubt he'll finish the season hitting .231 in Close & Late situations - but my original point (that his "clutch" numbers this season aren't on par with his normal standards) is still true, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

I figure I'll get a "I just PWNED U" response from Tiger and a photoshop Jeter/A-Rod hug from bee as well - that seems to be the M.O. when they get presented with facts about their favorite players. orionquest seems to be the most sensible and levelheaded Sox fan on this thread, so I'm curious what his take on this is.

[Mark Weber]

The greatest example is the player I think you left off, who squarely belongs in catagory #3: Curt Schilling. Regardless of his short time in Boston, he's made in indelible (blood) mark on the franchise and the city. His legacy in Boston will endure in spite of all that time in Philidelphia and Arizona. Maybe it's karma for playing in the Red Sox farm system.

I should just spend my time talking to you OQ - it's nice having a discussion with a diehard Sox fan that isn't blinded by his own faith. You and I seem to be similar fans - realists who respect the history of the game and live & die with each game.

I don't doubt that Schilling will forever be a favorite in Boston, but his overall performance as a Red Sox player isn't that different than what he did in Arizona - it's just that Boston's championship was more anticipated and celebrated (and his bloody sock made for great drama).

Schilling's best counterpart among the modern-day Yankees is Jimmy Key. Both were longtime veterans who arrived to their teams and were instrumental in delivering World Series victories. Key won 48 games in four years with New York. Schilling has won 39 games (so far) in three seasons for Boston. Both players lost most of one season to injury. The reason Boston will never forget Schilling while Key is warmly remembered in New York is that there was a severe difference in the Championship droughts they helped end. Schilling's 2004 title ended 86 years of Red Sox frustration. Key's 1996 championship ended New York's 18-year spell. Schilling's win total in Boston will likely end up closer to David Cone's 64 wins with the Yankees, but Cone helped deliver four championships, so I don't think that's a fair comparison = unless Boston wins the next two World Series.

You'll note that I didn't reflect Boston shipping off Hall-of-Famers Curt Schilling, Jeff Bagwell and Pee Wee Reese while they were minor-league prospects. That'd just be low. :)

[ToightLikeATiger]

mark you should just stop posting. you are just making yourself look bad. Non Yankees fans are laughing at you and your display of pathetic and desperate bash attempts. also you are embarrassing the classy Yankees fans.

just cause you can type a page worth of stuff doesnt mean any of it is intelligent or useful

[robertbee]

Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada. All are homegrown Yankees that are going to retire as Yankees. Jeter and Mo are going to the Hall of Fame. All four will have their numbers retired by the Yankees.

There are ZERO homegrown players on the Red Sox that you can say the same thing about. Vinny Cakes

And that will win them a championship Vinny Cakes. :rolleyes: whats the got to do with the price of maple syrup?

[robertbee]

Kids contribute to an era of good feelings


These are truly the very best of times at Fenway Park. The Red Sox are winning now and planning for later, and the turnstiles at the oldest ballpark in baseball continue to spin like pinwheels.
Extending their romp through the subterranean floors of the National League East, the Red Sox pasted the Philadelphia Phillies last night, 10-2. The Sox now have won seven straight and remain two games ahead of the New York Yankees, and the hometowners are doing it all with a host of baby-faced, diaper-laden young men who think Boston is just another place to play baseball not a rest stop as some moderator from the spawn board would have you beleive.

Welcome to hardball nirvana

“It’s the whole idea,” Red Sox manager Terry Francona said of the team’s ability to integrate young and old. “You certainly try to balance the two. It’s a heck of a lot easier when you’re up by six or seven (runs). The glass looks a little more full.”
Red Sox officials must be doing cartwheels these days, and it certainly seems difficult to deprive them of that right. There is still a long way to go this season and the Sox are beating the feathers out of every bad team they encounter. They are also managing to stay in the thick of playoff contention without eating their young.
Ultimately, of course, this all goes back to the championship. The Sox and their fans were an impatient, desperate lot before the Sox changed history in 2004, and the ripple effects are still being felt now. Without that world title, the Sox might not have been able to nurture Jonathan Papelbon and Jon Lester; Kevin Youkilis and Manny Delcarmen. Certainly, they would not be able to turn to those players now, with the Sox in the hunt and the season approaching its dog days.
In past years, the Red Sox frequently resisted this sort of thing because there was too much at stake. Young players came to the championship-starved Red Sox and risked being devoured, so the Sox were caught in a vicious cycle with only one thing to do with their promising young players.
Trade them.
“It’s a high-demand place. They expect a lot of you,” said Jason Varitek, the Red Sox captain and catcher. “Me and Trot (Nixon) were young players that got to play here. We didn’t have our first go-round (in the major leagues) somewhere else.”
Now the Red Sox have Papelbon and Lester; Youkilis, Delcarmen and the highly touted Craig Hansen. With the exception of Youkilis, who had 287 career at-bats entering this season, all of them are rookies. It is difficult to remember a time when the Red Sox had this many young players, on the pitching staff or otherwise, without having sacrificed the chance to play in at least one October.
Seriously, how does it get any better than this? Since being swept at Minnesota last week, the Red Sox have outscored their opponents, 55-22. They have picked up three games in the standings. The Sox this season often have looked suspect, particularly against the good teams, but they currently are on pace for 98 victories and rarely beat themselves

We’re having to lean on Jon Lester for innings. We’re having to lean on Papelbon to close games. We’re having to lean on Youkilis (every day),” said Varitek. “It’s important to be put in situations to succeed. These guys have done that.”


The wins keep coming.


The future looks promising.


Now more than ever, the sky is very bright over an aging Fenway Park.




Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada. All are homegrown Yankees that are going to retire as Yankees. Jeter and Mo are going to the Hall of Fame. All four will have their numbers retired by the Yankees.

There are ZERO homegrown players on the Red Sox that you can say the same thing about. Vinny Cakes


Vinny were not looking towards a retirement party anytime soon. I hope you enjoy your rretirement party and oldtimers games. We will be enjoying Championships here in Boston.

[robertbee]

but my original point (that his "clutch" numbers this season aren't on par with his normal standards) is still true, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.
Web


That's a weak argument. Its not even the All Star break. papi has proven himself countless of times. For someone "having and off season" he's leading the league in RBI's and 3rd in Home runs. Not bad for someone that is struggling with a bad knee and is still carrying his team with walk offs.



http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Reuters_Photo/2005/07/11/1121081798_9540-1.jpg

In three seasons with the Sox, David Ortiz has 12 walkoff hits, including eight walkoff homers. Last year he received a plaque from the Sox that read "David Ortiz #34 The Greatest Clutch Hitter in the History of the Boston Red Sox." Here's a look at each of his walkoffs

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/06/22/1119452999_7998.jpg

July 26, 2003
Red Sox 5, Yankees 4

Ortiz is mobbed after his ninth-inning double off the Green Monster drove home Jeremy Giambi and gave the Sox a 5-4 win over the Yankees.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/06/22/1119453135_1541.jpg
Sept. 23, 2003
Red Sox 6, Orioles 5

David Ortiz is greeted at home plate after his 10th-inning bomb over the Monster lifted the Sox over the Orioles.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/06/22/1119453252_5133.jpg

April 11, 2004
Red Sox 6, Blue Jays 4

Ortiz is surrounded after his 12th-inning, two-run home run over the Monster lifted the Sox over the Blue Jays.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/06/22/1119453275_7603.jpg
June 11, 2004
Red Sox 2, Dodgers 1

Ortiz watches his ninth-inning single fall, allowing Johnny Damon to come around from second and score the game winning run against the Dodgers.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/06/22/1119453321_6840.jpg

Oct. 8, 2004
Red Sox 8, Angels 6

Ortiz watches his two-run home run off Jarrod Washburn sail over the Monster in the 10th inning of Game 3 of the 2004 ALDS. The shot clinched the series for the Sox

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/06/22/1119453342_0324.jpg

Oct. 17, 2004
Red Sox 6, Yankees 4

Ortiz prepares to leap on home plate after his 12th-inning. two-run homer off of Paul Quantrill in Game 4 of the ALCS gave the Sox new life against the Yankees.
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/06/22/1119453364_2786.jpg

Oct. 18, 2004
Red Sox 5, Yankees 4

Ortiz and Yankees catcher Jorge Posada look on as Ortiz drops a 14th-inning single into center field, allowing Johnny Damon to score from second and the Sox to send the ALCS back to New York.
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/06/22/1119453389_5485.jpg

June 2, 2005
Red Sox 6, Orioles 4

Ortiz approached home after his three-run shot off of BJ Ryan in the bottom of the ninth landed in the center-field bleachers and brought the Sox one game closer to the then-AL East leaders



http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/08/17/1124278763_3497.jpg

Aug. 16, 2005
Red Sox 10, Tigers 7

Ortiz slugged a solo homer in the top of the ninth to tie the game, 3-3, then homered again in the 10th inning (a three-run shot). The Sox scored eight times in the ninth and 10th, and Ortiz drove in four of those runs.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/09/07/1126085342_3351.jpg
Sept. 6, 2005
Red Sox 3, Angels 2

David Ortiz had things jumping at Fenway Park after he connected for a ninth-inning homer to beat the Angels -- his sixth walkoff blast as a member of the Red Sox
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/09/14/1126728203_2904.jpg

Sept. 12, 2005
Red Sox 6, Blue Jays 5

Though not a walkoff, Ortiz hit his second game-winning home run in seven days, this one a two-out, top-of-the-11th solo shot to beat the Blue Jays, 6-5, on a night the Sox bullpen coughed up a 5-0 lead. It was his second homer of the game

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/09/15/1126784619_1694.jpg



Sept. 14, 2005
Red Sox 5, Blue Jays 3

Though also not a walkoff, Ortiz hit his third game-deciding homer in nine days, this a two-run blast in the ninth that snapped a 3-3 tie in the Sox' 5-3 win.
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/09/30/1128078685_6160.jpg

Sept. 29, 2005
Red Sox 5, Blue Jays 4

After hitting a game-tying homer in the bottom of the eighth, David Ortiz delivered a game-winning RBI single in the bottom of the inning to give the Red Sox one of their most important victories of the season.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/06/11/1150058302_7045.jpg

June 11, 2006
Red Sox 5, Rangers 4

Down two runs with two outs and a two-strike count in the ninth, David Ortiz took Akinori Otsuka deep for a three-run home run.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/06/24/1151185997_3756.jpg

June 24, 2006
Red Sox 5, Phillies 3

David Ortiz flipped his batting helmet as he approached home plate after his tenth-inning home run downed the Philadelphia Phillies, 5-3.



Not bad for a player picked up off waivers for 1.5 million. "In Theo we trust"

[Mark Weber]

mark you should just stop posting. you are just making yourself look bad. Non Yankees fans are laughing at you and your display of pathetic and desperate bash attempts. also you are embarrassing the classy Yankees fans.

just cause you can type a page worth of stuff doesnt mean any of it is intelligent or useful

Since your responses are all the same Tiger "You're making yourself look bad" maybe you should stop posting on this thread? Want me to add your standard response to the bottom of every point I bring up? It'd save you time. Hell, I could make it my signature.

You don't listen Tiger - it's gotten so bad I wonder if you even read.

[Mark Weber]

No one's disputing that Ortiz may be the best free agent signing EVER bee. But you posting images of his clutch hits from seasons past actually backs my argument. So does the "we've got our own players now" article - which acknowledges everything I've said and you denied about "the rest stop."

Thank you for agreeing with me.

[Mark Weber]

Whatever Weber - you should just stop posting. All you do is make yourself look bad with your historical references, accurate statistics and insight. We don't want it here. Oh yeah - good luck cutting into Boston's 2.5 game lead in late June!! THE YANKEES SUCK!!!

[robertbee]

which acknowledges everything I've said and you denied about "the rest stop."


When did I ever deny that? That's your term. I call it free agency.






But you posting images of his clutch hits from seasons past actually backs my argument
Let me see if I can find some pictures of season future. ;)
There are a couple from this season in there as well. Its still a young season.
By posting his stats of the current season is a good way to win your argument. If favors you. What was his stats the previous 3 years with as many games as he has this year? Are they the same? Greater? Did he come up big down the stretch. Thier is more to it that just posting what he has done this season. I don't think by using this young season gives your argument any merit that Papi is not clutch. He is clearly the most valuable offensive player on the Sox.

[BlakChamber]

Whatever Weber - you should just stop posting. All you do is make yourself look bad with your historical references, accurate statistics and insight. We don't want it here. Oh yeah - good luck cutting into Boston's 2.5 game lead in late June!! THE YANKEES SUCK!!!
Mark...that wasn't a very good impression of toight. You spelled everything right. It couldn't be him ;)

[Hardcore Legend]

Mark, you are going on Toight's ignore list.

[Vinnie4]

And that will win them a championship Vinny Cakes. :rolleyes: whats the got to do with the price of maple syrup?
Hey genius, I never posted that. You reference Mavrik's post. I guess your obsession with me just got the better of you.

[Vinnie4]

When did I ever deny that? That's your term. I call it free agency.




Let me see if I can find some pictures of season future. ;)
There are a couple from this season in there as well. Its still a young season.
By posting his stats of the current season is a good way to win your argument. If favors you. What was his stats the previous 3 years with as many games as he has this year? Are they the same? Greater? Did he come up big down the stretch. Thier is more to it that just posting what he has done this season. I don't think by using this young season gives your argument any merit that Papi is not clutch. He is clearly the most valuable offensive player on the Sox.
Show me once where Mark said Ortiz isn't clutch. All he said was Otriz's numbers are not what they have been lately. You jumped all over A-Rod at the beginning of the month when he was in that slump. Let me ask you this bee, how many more wins would Boston have if Ortiz was putting up his usual numbers?

I can't wait for your nonsensical johnny cakes reference, or your complaint about how I throw out stats.:rolleyes:

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

ATTENTION: Sox fans, ya know, how it irks you that the Yankees must be clean shaven and how your home boy Damon sold out. Well, the Yankees and Damon have the Red Sox to thank for the clean shaven rule. Yes - you, the Red Sox. And I qoute:

"We played our home opener against Boston. Before the game the teams were lined up on the foul lines for the national athem. Boston was neat and clean. They had their hair cut and they looked good, and they kicked our ass. George was sitting in his box behind the dugout and apparently felt some of the players were wearing their hair too long. George wrote a note to Ralph Houk and ordered him to read it during a meeting before a game. The letter said, 'I want number 19, 47 and 28 to cut their hair'. (The Bronx Zoo, by Sparky Lyle)

And right there Sox fans you have it. All thanks to you, the Yankees built a tradition that you now loathe, a tradition the Red Sox once owned themselves.

[Mark Weber]

When did I ever deny that? That's your term. I call it free agency.

Correct me if I'm wrong then - you're saying that the advent of free agency in the off-season following 1975 cost the Red Sox these players (either signing with other teams or being dealt before they could become free agents):

Wade Boggs, Nomar Garciaparra, Mo Vaughn, Fred Lynn, Johnny Damon, Carlton Fisk, Roger Clemens, Bill Lee, Bruce Hurst, Luis Tiant, Pedro Martinez and Derek Lowe.

If that's true, then what cost Boston these guys?:

Hall-of-Fame OF Tris Speaker
Hall-of-Fame OF Harry Hooper
Hall-of-Fame OF Babe Ruth
Hall-of-Fame 1B Jimmie Foxx
Hall-of-Fame catcher Rick Ferrell
Hall-of-Fame 3B Jimmy Collins
Hall-of-Fame pitcher Cy Young
Hall-of-Fame shortstop Pee Wee Reese
All-Star infielder Billy Goodman
All-Star infielder Johnny Pesky
All-Star OF Tony Conigliaro
All-Star OF Reggie Smith
All-Star and Gold Glove 1B George Scott
All-Star pitcher D. Radatz
All-Star pitcher and Cy Young Award winner Jim Lonborg
All-Star infielder Pete Runnels
All-Star pitcher Joe Dobson
All-Star pitcher Bill Monbouquette
OF Duffy Lewis
Pitcher Dutch Leonard

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

ATTENTION: Sox fans, ya know, how it irks you that the Yankees must be clean shaven and how your home boy Damon sold out. Well, the Yankees and Damon have the Red Sox to thank for the clean shaven rule. Yes - you, the Red Sox. And I qoute:

"We played our home opener against Boston. Before the game the teams were lined up on the foul lines for the national athem. Boston was neat and clean. They had their hair cut and they looked good, and they kicked our ass. George was sitting in his box behind the dugout and apparently felt some of the players were wearing their hair too long. George wrote a note to Ralph Houk and ordered him to read it during a meeting before a game. The letter said, 'I want number 19, 47 and 28 to cut their hair'. (The Bronx Zoo, by Sparky Lyle)

And right there Sox fans you have it. All thanks to you, the Yankees built a tradition that you now loathe, a tradition the Red Sox once owned themselves.

[Mavrik28]

Why do people always bring up the A-Rod contract? The Yankees are not paying the whole contract. When the Yanks got him he had 179 million left on his contract. 67 million of that deal is being paid by the Rangers. He costs less per year for the Yanks then Manny does for the Red Sox. Great trade for the Yanks if you ask me. And once the Yanks get Soriano back either this season or as a free agent in the off season, all they would would have traded to the Rangers is Joaquin Arias.

[robertbee]

HL, to defend RB, he was actually quoting my previous post. I think he mixed up the tage in his replay and made it look like he wrote it by accident.


Correct
__________________

[robertbee]

Correct me if I'm wrong then - you're saying that the advent of free agency in the off-season following 1975 cost the Red Sox these players (either signing with other teams or being dealt before they could become free agents):


No those are your words. I never said that. You stand corrected.



If that's true, then what cost Boston these guys?:

Hall-of-Fame OF Tris Speaker
Hall-of-Fame OF Harry Hooper
Hall-of-Fame OF Babe Ruth
Hall-of-Fame 1B Jimmie Foxx
Hall-of-Fame catcher Rick Ferrell
Hall-of-Fame 3B Jimmy Collins
Hall-of-Fame pitcher Cy Young
Hall-of-Fame shortstop Pee Wee Reese
All-Star infielder Billy Goodman
All-Star infielder Johnny Pesky
All-Star OF Tony Conigliaro
All-Star OF Reggie Smith
All-Star and Gold Glove 1B George Scott
All-Star pitcher D. Radatz
All-Star pitcher and Cy Young Award winner Jim Lonborg
All-Star infielder Pete Runnels
All-Star pitcher Joe Dobson
All-Star pitcher Bill Monbouquette
OF Duffy Lewis
Pitcher Dutch Leonard


Not sure what this has to do with the price of sportspicks? :confused:

A lot of them came back opening day 2005 to raise WORLS SERIES CHAMPIONSHIP BANNER... They came back wearing thier old uniforms. What a day it was. Did you happen to watch it? After all we did beat the Yankees again that day.


YEAH BABY

[Hardcore Legend]

Why do people always bring up the A-Rod contract? The Yankees are not paying the whole contract. When the Yanks got him he had 179 million left on his contract. 67 million of that deal is being paid by the Rangers. He costs less per year for the Yanks then Manny does for the Red Sox. Great trade for the Yanks if you ask me. And once the Yanks get Soriano back either this season or as a free agent in the off season, all they would would have traded to the Rangers is Joaquin Arias.

So how much will he cost the Yankees for each year of 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010. I'd like to know for my comparision of Blue Jays/Yankees guaranteed contracts through those years.

[robertbee]

Why do people always bring up the A-Rod contract? The Yankees are not paying the whole contract. When the Yanks got him he had 179 million left on his contract. 67 million of that deal is being paid by the Rangers. He costs less per year for the Yanks then Manny does for the Red Sox. Great trade for the Yanks if you ask me. And once the Yanks get Soriano back either this season or as a free agent in the off season, all they would would have traded to the Rangers is Joaquin Arias

Should never have let Sorianno go. Arod destroys every team he goes too. He's been an embarraassment to the pintstripes. Slap happy bush league no cluth hitting pretty boy know it all. So glad he went to the Yankees. If he came to Boston we never would have won another World Series. Keep him. retire his number the boy is a outright curse

[Roper]

And once the Yanks get Soriano back either this season or as a free agent in the off season,

Yup, just what the Yankees need, more offense. Typical arrogant Yankee fan talk...:rolleyes:

[Hardcore Legend]

Moose Mussina, Top 10 in Ks, Top 10 in Wins, Top 10 in ERA all in the AL. Nice to see him keep chugging along.

[robertbee]

Show me once where Mark said Ortiz isn't clutch. All he said was Otriz's numbers are not what they have been lately. You jumped all over A-Rod at the beginning of the month when he was in that slump. Let me ask you this bee, how many more wins would Boston have if Ortiz was putting up his usual numbers?

I can't wait for your nonsensical johnny cakes reference, or your complaint about how I throw out stats.:rolleyes:
Vinnie4


Really I jumped on Arod because he was in a slump? No. That has nothing to do with the price of shoe string fries. Arods all sizzle and no bacon when it counts. I can agree on 1 thing about Arod. When he said he was Adog. That was classic.
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/adog.jpg

'I played like a dog,' A-Rod says

Yankee third baseman made crucial error, batted .133 with no RBIs

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/ap/ans12210050307.widec.jpg (http://board.spawn.com/forums/)

Alex Rodriguez’s most significant play of this AL division series may be remembered as one he didn’t make — with his glove.
Rodriguez, whose fielding error led to the tying run for the Angels in their Game 2 victory, certainly didn’t leave much of an impression with his bat.
He was hitless in Monday night’s 5-3 loss that sent the Yankees home for the year, and finished the five-game series with no RBIs and a .133 batting average.



He felt he let his teammates down

not bad for all the money he gets. :rolleyes:


But atleast he got the MVP award. I real true MVP if you ask me.
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/DO_back_fg_bdd.jpg

[Vinnie4]

No those are your words. I never said that. You stand corrected.




Not sure what this has to do with the price of sportspicks? :confused:

A lot of them came back opening day 2005 to raise WORLS SERIES CHAMPIONSHIP BANNER... They came back wearing thier old uniforms. What a day it was. Did you happen to watch it? After all we did beat the Yankees again that day.


YEAH BABY
Of course they did. Because they couldn't win one themselves.

[Vinnie4]

Really I jumped on Arod because he was in a slump? No. That has nothing to do with the price of shoe string fries. Arods all sizzle and no bacon when it counts. I can agree on 1 thing about Arod. When he said he was Adog. That was classic.
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/adog.jpg

'I played like a dog,' A-Rod says

Yankee third baseman made crucial error, batted .133 with no RBIs

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/ap/ans12210050307.widec.jpg (http://board.spawn.com/forums/)

Alex Rodriguez’s most significant play of this AL division series may be remembered as one he didn’t make — with his glove.
Rodriguez, whose fielding error led to the tying run for the Angels in their Game 2 victory, certainly didn’t leave much of an impression with his bat.
He was hitless in Monday night’s 5-3 loss that sent the Yankees home for the year, and finished the five-game series with no RBIs and a .133 batting average.



He felt he let his teammates down

not bad for all the money he gets. :rolleyes:


But atleast he got the MVP award. I real true MVP if you ask me.
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/DO_back_fg_bdd.jpg
He admitted he played a horrible series. Yeah, that makes him a horrible teammate. Keep crying about last year's MVP award, maybe they'll change the voting results for you.

[robertbee]

On occasion, like last night at Tampa Bay, the percentages have to be in your favor. A-Rod’s “Yankee career” hitting in scoring position average is far from MVP status. He is in the third year of his contract with this team. It is time to quell the image of ” Where’s the beef.” A-Rod has all the tools. When it comes to putting it all together at the most crucial of times though those tools are overshadowed. Overshadowed by his inability to discipline himself to relax and trust his talent and instinct to take control. Could it be the pressure of the big salary? Playing in New York? Needing to be the king of his castle? Perhaps all the aforementioned. Having a little fun might also help; look at Giambi, look at Damon. These guys have fun and it shows in a number of ways. Giambi even in the worst of times always managed to focus on discipline at the plate. Not swinging at bad pitches and working the count. The result is an on base percentage among the best in the game. Damon works best when he has two strikes on him. Again discipline at the plate.
When is too much information, too much? Well that has to be determined by the sensor reactors of the human instinct. We all have the capabilities of processing data at warp speed and rationalizing, to some extent, how to physically respond to that information. Pro-athletes are conditioned by training or natural ability to be quicker than most to get this reaction fine tuned. How does a pro-athlete know what is the balance between reacting to his or her natural ability and the thought process that gets them there? In some cases, years of dedicated training. In others it is a God given gift. Still it is knowing one’s discipline level at the most crucial of times that can make an athlete perform at super star status. In the ZONE so to speak. Jeter, Pedro, Rivera, Ortiz, Manny, Bonds just to name a few.
A-Rod, is of a different ilk. He is a very cerebral guy. Listen to him speak for two minutes and you’ll know what I mean. Unfortunately he seems to fall into the category of having too much information and not the mental discipline skills to be that ZONE kind of player
With the ability of every major league team to have video editing equipment, and editors on staff that can slow down, freeze frame and fast forward every pitch, the athlete can watch video of his every at bat and critique his swing at nauseam. A-Rod spends hours before and after the game in the batting cage. He watches video of his at bats during and after the game. He talks with batting coach Don Mattingly about pitch selection, bat speed, stance, what pitch each pitcher throws in certain situations. He is one of the first ballplayers to arrive at the ballpark and one of the last ones to leave. No one works harder than A-Rod. Not to mention the time he puts into learning a new position. Unfortunately, for A-Rod, mental disciplined, or lack there of, takes control when pressure hits that certain level.
Maybe in this age of specialty training the Yankees can higher a levity coach. One who teaches players to throw a pie in someone’s face. Stick a gum bubble on a unknowing teammates hat. Glue a teammates bat to a bat rack. Have some fun with the game and themselves. Hey, it’s a kids game. Unfortunately it is played for adult money and that is pressure

[robertbee]

He admitted he played a horrible series. Yeah, that makes him a horrible teammate. Keep crying about last year's MVP award, maybe they'll change the voting results for you
Vinny


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/090503a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/?)


Who's crying? Arod is good for fantasy baseball thats about it. What has he ever done for a team? He's so full of himeslf. A plastic baseabll player when the pressure is on. He melts at the plate and in the feild at crucial times. Maybe one day he will show up but until that day comes he is just a plastic player who can't win. A Dog Adog. At least Dogs have some bark.

[Vinnie4]

Have some fun with the game and themselves. Hey, it’s a kids game. Unfortunately it is played for adult money and that is pressure

Unfortunately baseball has become a business. It is no longer a kids game, when a player is paid millions to perform at the highest level. This isn't a game, it's a career. Hell, it's just a game, why don't we forget the playoffs and World Series and all just go out for ice cream?:rolleyes:

[Vinnie4]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/090503a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v225/robertbee/?)


Who's crying? Arod is good for fantasy baseball thats about it. What has he ever done for a team? He's so full of himeslf. A plastic baseabll player when the pressure is on. He melts at the plate and in the feild at crucial times. Maybe one day he will show up but until that day comes he is just a plastic player who can't win. A Dog Adog. At least Dogs have some bark.

Who's crying? You are. The better baseball player won the MVP. I don't think the better hitter won the MVP, but hey, that's why they give out the Silver Slugger Award.

[Mavrik28]

You'll note that I didn't reflect Boston shipping off Hall-of-Famers Curt Schilling, Jeff Bagwell and Pee Wee Reese while they were minor-league prospects. That'd just be low. :)

Jack Morris has better career stats then Curt and he can't get in the Hall. No way Curt gets in.

[robertbee]

Who's crying? You are. The better baseball player won the MVP. I don't think the better hitter won the MVP, but hey, that's why they give out the Silver Slugger Award

Sounds like your crying my friend. Or whinning. ;) Arod can have all the MVP's he wants. Big Papi will stick to World Series titles and being clutch when it counts. File that under Adog. :p

[Mavrik28]

Sounds like your crying my friend. Or whinning. ;) Arod can have all the MVP's he wants. Big Papi will stick to World Series titles and being clutch when it counts. File that under Adog. :p

First off he has won a total of 1, not multiple.

Secondly, I once referred to World Series titles, and you said they are not World Series Titles, but World Series Championships.

Make your mind up.

[robertbee]

First off he has won a total of 1, not multiple.

Secondly, I once referred to World Series titles, and you said they are not World Series Titles, but World Series Championships.

Make your mind up.............Mavrik28



You have learned well my apprentice. I thought you would fall for that. Good job :)

proud of ya!

:D

[Mavrik28]

You have learned well my apprentice. I thought you would fall for that. Good job :)

proud of ya!

:D

This post actually made me giggle.

[robertbee]

Did someone say giggle?



http://www.thezreview.co.uk/posters/posterimages/d/drgiggles.jpg

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

Funny how my clean shaven comment goes overlooked...typical Sox ****, when they get called out on something they ignore and start up another convo. I wonder if Bush and Sox fans are intertwined.

[Vinnie4]

Funny how my clean shaven comment goes overlooked...typical Sox ****, when they get called out on something they ignore and start up another convo. I wonder if Bush and Sox fans are intertwined.
I'm surprised he didn't bring up johnny cakes.

[Mark Weber]

On occasion, like last night at Tampa Bay, the percentages have to be in your favor. A-Rod’s “Yankee career” hitting in scoring position average is far from MVP status. He is in the third year of his contract with this team. It is time to quell the image of ” Where’s the beef.” A-Rod has all the tools. When it comes to putting it all together at the most crucial of times though those tools are overshadowed. Overshadowed by his inability to discipline himself to relax and trust his talent and instinct to take control. Could it be the pressure of the big salary? Playing in New York? Needing to be the king of his castle? Perhaps all the aforementioned. Having a little fun might also help; look at Giambi, look at Damon. These guys have fun and it shows in a number of ways. Giambi even in the worst of times always managed to focus on discipline at the plate. Not swinging at bad pitches and working the count. The result is an on base percentage among the best in the game. Damon works best when he has two strikes on him. Again discipline at the plate.
When is too much information, too much? Well that has to be determined by the sensor reactors of the human instinct. We all have the capabilities of processing data at warp speed and rationalizing, to some extent, how to physically respond to that information. Pro-athletes are conditioned by training or natural ability to be quicker than most to get this reaction fine tuned. How does a pro-athlete know what is the balance between reacting to his or her natural ability and the thought process that gets them there? In some cases, years of dedicated training. In others it is a God given gift. Still it is knowing one’s discipline level at the most crucial of times that can make an athlete perform at super star status. In the ZONE so to speak. Jeter, Pedro, Rivera, Ortiz, Manny, Bonds just to name a few.
A-Rod, is of a different ilk. He is a very cerebral guy. Listen to him speak for two minutes and you’ll know what I mean. Unfortunately he seems to fall into the category of having too much information and not the mental discipline skills to be that ZONE kind of player
With the ability of every major league team to have video editing equipment, and editors on staff that can slow down, freeze frame and fast forward every pitch, the athlete can watch video of his every at bat and critique his swing at nauseam. A-Rod spends hours before and after the game in the batting cage. He watches video of his at bats during and after the game. He talks with batting coach Don Mattingly about pitch selection, bat speed, stance, what pitch each pitcher throws in certain situations. He is one of the first ballplayers to arrive at the ballpark and one of the last ones to leave. No one works harder than A-Rod. Not to mention the time he puts into learning a new position. Unfortunately, for A-Rod, mental disciplined, or lack there of, takes control when pressure hits that certain level.
Maybe in this age of specialty training the Yankees can higher a levity coach. One who teaches players to throw a pie in someone’s face. Stick a gum bubble on a unknowing teammates hat. Glue a teammates bat to a bat rack. Have some fun with the game and themselves. Hey, it’s a kids game. Unfortunately it is played for adult money and that is pressure

bee, I know that's not your writing. Where'd this come from and why didn't you credit the source?

[Mark Weber]

I'm surprised he didn't bring up johnny cakes.

What's that got to do with the price of overpaying Edgar Renteria then selling him to Atlanta for a prospect to trade for Coco Crisp?

[silversurfur65]

Young players came to the championship-starved Red Sox and risked being devoured, so the Sox were caught in a vicious cycle with only one thing to do with their promising young players.


Speaking of which...I have a whole wack of Phil Plantier rookie cards I could let go of cheap !! :D

[Mavrik28]

Tonight the Yankees lost the night cap of a doubleheader. The winning pitcher was Anibal Sanchez in his MLB debut. The Marlins made off like theives in dumping Mota, Beckett, and Mike one nut Lowell.

Theo also traded Josh Bard, Andy Marte and Arroyo. You go Theo, keep trading solid young players for crap like Beckett and Lowell and Mirabelli and Loretta.

Question for Blue Jays fans, how the heck is Towers still pitching? Are there no better options in the minor leagues for you guys?

[robertbee]

Funny how my clean shaven comment goes overlooked...typical Sox ****, when they get called out on something they ignore and start up another convo. I wonder if Bush and Sox fans are intertwined.


What makes you think it irks someone? I think its a feeble attempt at nothing? Who cares it people are cleaned shaved or not. We live in a free country. I shave when I feel like it.


ATTENTION: Sox fans, ya know, how it irks you that the Yankees must be clean shaven and how your home boy Damon sold out. Well, the Yankees and Damon have the Red Sox to thank for the clean shaven rule. Yes - you, the Red Sox. And I qoute:

Damon lied just like Arod lied about leaving Texas. Both said they would never play in NY. Double talking jive. Big deal. well yes they both got big deals and flew the coop. I have nothing bad to say about Damon, I won't mention that he screwed his 1st wife over for a Boston Bar Fly hussy. We all have out faults. Johnny deleivered us a World Series. I thank him for that. When he won game 7 in NY it was incredible. After the Grand Slam it sealed the deal. Stuck a dagger in the Yankees. ALL DONE have a nice year were going on to win the world series kind of grand slam. Bless Johnny Damon. Our long hair savior how feel from grace the day he dawned pinstripes.
See Ya Johnny D!


"We played our home opener against Boston. Before the game the teams were lined up on the foul lines for the national athem. Boston was neat and clean. They had their hair cut and they looked good, and they kicked our ass. George was sitting in his box behind the dugout and apparently felt some of the players were wearing their hair too long. George wrote a note to Ralph Houk and ordered him to read it during a meeting before a game. The letter said, 'I want number 19, 47 and 28 to cut their hair'. (The Bronx Zoo, by Sparky Lyle)

Thats a touching story. How cares? If the Yankees want to be Communist bastards then let them but CCCP on thier sleves and have military rules. Do you read hair cut digest as well? Please. :rolleyes:

And right there Sox fans you have it. All thanks to you, the Yankees built a tradition that you now loathe, a tradition the Red Sox once owned themselves.

A tradition? A tradition right out of ***** eye for the striaght guy

[robertbee]

Tonight the Yankees lost the night cap of a doubleheader. The winning pitcher was Anibal Sanchez

Yesssssssss. Ani rocks!

[robertbee]

bee, I know that's not your writing. Where'd this come from and why didn't you credit the source?

fox espn? I dont remember. Is there a rule of crediiting the source? Good writting ayy? What's you thoughts on it? Pretty on the money how Arod crumbles in big games. I mean Adog.

[robertbee]

Originally Posted by Vinnie4
I'm surprised he didn't bring up johnny cakes.


Sweet sweet Johnny Cakes. :D

[robertbee]

Beckett, and Mike one nut Lowell

2 good reasons why the Sox are in first place. World Series Champions as well. The SOx sure did thier home work on Lowell. Pull hitter which is great for Fenway park. He's leading the league in doubles and his glove has got the best defensive team in baseball onto of the AL East. Brilliant just brilliant!

[robertbee]

Youth of a Red Sox Nation: Along with Papelbon, the Boston bullpen has experienced a youth movement that has brought success and excitement to the pitching staff. "Mixing in the young guys is great," Francona said. "[On Saturday,] [Javier] Lopez came in and saved the game. It kind of went under the radar. If their confidence can grow while they're learning and while they're up here, that would really be good. That's kind of the point we're trying to do is that when they're not successful one day, just remind them of what they need to do and how they can get better. With veteran pitchers, they either do it or not, and with young guys, there's that room to grow, and it's kind of exciting."

[robertbee]

Sanchez, who was called up from Double-A Carolina to make the start. Sanchez became just the second rookie opponent pitcher in the past 10 years to win at Yankee Stadium in his Major League debut

Who was the first?

[robertbee]

The Yankees scored only two runs in the series' final two games and were shut out for the first time in Yankee Stadium since April 29, 2005,

Thats just sad...:p

To make matters worse, hot-hitting second basemen Robinson Cano had to leave the game in the sixth inning with a strained left hamstring suffered when legging out a double. Cano walked with a stiff, straightened leg after the game, but said he wasn't in much pain. Manager Joe Torre said Cano told him the leg got tight just before the bag.

Maybe he can get some HGH from Giambi to help him with the injury.


Sanchez left to audible applause considering there were only 6,809 fans in attendance, including several rowdy young Marlins fans behind home plate. The attendance, which was the smallest at Yankee Stadium since April 7, 1984, was so low because Sunday's night game was the make-up from Saturday's rainout

I guess this is where the term Fair Wheather fans came from...

[robertbee]

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/images/2006/06/25/ZpwwE2MC.jpg
Alex Rodriguez and the Yankees offense had trouble getting going on Sunday night.
I played like a dog.... ADOG

[Mark Weber]

New York took two out of three from a Marlins team that had won ten of their last eleven gamess coming into the weekend set. They couldn't solve Marlins rookie Anibal Sanchez in his major league debut, a former Red Sox prospect given up in the Beckett trade. I wish NY hadn't lost ground to Boston this weekend, but all-in-all they played well and took two of three from a very hot team.

[Hardcore Legend]

Anyone notice that David Ortiz career really took off once he became teammates with Jeremy Giambi.

[robertbee]

New York took two out of three from a Marlins team that had won ten of their last eleven gamess coming into the weekend set. They couldn't solve Marlins rookie Anibal Sanchez in his major league debut, a former Red Sox prospect given up in the Beckett trade. I wish NY hadn't lost ground to Boston this weekend, but all-in-all they played well and took two of three from a very hot team.

Mark Weber



Not bad for a bunch of kids with a total of $ 14,998,500 payroll.

Yankees making more than the Marlin payroll

Giambi $ 20,428,571
Jeter $ 20,600,000 :eek: wow. overpaid.
The Big Mess $ 15,661,427
Moose $ 19,000,000
Adog $ 21,680,727

close but no cigar

Damon $ 13,000,000
Matsui $ 13,000,000
posada $ 12,000,000
Mariano $ 10,500,000
Sheffield $ 10,756,171

Taking 2 of 3 at home is not pretty good. Ask King george. His team is paid very handsomely and they came up short once again. The Yankees scored onlly 2 runs in the final 2 games and got shut out If I was paying those checks I would be upset. Unless I was the Marlins owner.

[Mark Weber]

bee, when you create and defend stupid arguments with no one it weakens your stance on the rare opportunities you actually come up with something to say.

[Mark Weber]

A lot of them came back opening day 2005 to raise WORLS SERIES CHAMPIONSHIP BANNER... They came back wearing thier old uniforms. What a day it was.

Which old uniforms did they wear? The ones they rented or the ones of the teams Boston traded them to? :)

I'm sorry free agency made Boston sell Babe Ruth to the Yankees.

[robertbee]

bee, when you create and defend stupid arguments with no one it weakens your stance on the rare opportunities you actually come up with something to say.


Matter of opionion.... Babe who? Wasn't that a disney movie?

you must admitt the Marlins are doing pretty well for a team with total of $ 14,998,500 payroll. Maybe NY can learn something from them instead of over paying for used cars that break down after over use and heavy mileage. Boston maybe a rest stop in your words but I have to say NY is a rest home for aging all stars. :D Hey you got Grandpa Unit on the hill tonight. The Ace of Age

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

Anyone notice that David Ortiz career really took off once he became teammates with Jeremy Giambi.

You're not saying what I think you are saying (Arias is his middle or last name switched with Ortiz):

http://www.homeruncards.com/imagesrc/david-ortiz-ultra.jpg


Just thought this picture was funny for the obvious (BRONX):

http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/aleung/Ortiz.JPG

[Mark Weber]

You're finally right about something bee, the Marlins are playing really good baseball lately, especially for a team with such a tiny payroll. I guess Boston doesn't qualify as a rest home since their players all get dealt or leave before their careers can wind down?

What team will Trot Nixon leave for after the season?

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Anyone notice that David Ortiz career really took off once he became teammates with Jeremy Giambi.

No, not really. It's nice to see you've reverted back to "Yankee PR guy" status, though. It's also nice that you've overlooked that Sheffield and Giambi are on the juice as we speak. Good observation.

[Hardcore Legend]

Maybe he can get some HGH from Giambi to help him with the injury.


Anyone notice that David Ortiz career really took off once he became teammates with Jeremy Giambi.

I'm just saying, apparently it's all about who you know.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Boston doesn't qualify as a rest home since their players all get dealt or leave before their careers can wind down?

What team will Trot Nixon leave for after the season?

Mark isnt winning the main goal? why would teams keep players winding down that cant contribute as good as someone else? If someone doesnt cut the mustard anymore why suffer with them?

Also why does Trot Nixon have to go? Redsox want him back and he wants back. He is having a great year. Just cause Sox traded for Wily Mo doesnt mean Nixon is gone. Wily Mo was insurance for Nixon because of his injuries the last couple years. Wily may be more of a replacement for Manny.

also i know you continue to ignore this but i will try with you again.

Why do you bring up racism to bash the Sox when the Yankees organization was racist as well? It happened to every organization so why single out the Redsox on it?

also why do you keep arguing about the Sox bringing in new players and losing them. Calling the place a rest stop? The Yankees do the same thing as well. They are also more of a retirement home because they bring in older high priced free agents.

i see your arguments and you dislike the Redsox. That is fine. But to criticize the Redsox for something the Yankees do and pretty much every ball club in baseball does is ridiculous.

i just wonder why there has to be trash talking at all. why cant there just be a yankees/redsox baseball discussion thread? When the series come up fans can post observations and opinions and that would be fine. But this bashing of teams with useless and petty past information does nothing for anyone.

Does bringing up racism in baseball decades ago make you feel better about yourself or your love for the Yankees Mark?

Does bashing the Redsox for using free agency and trades to try to better their team like everyone else does make you feel better about yourself and your love for the Yankees Mark?

im just wondering why all this stuff is so important to you. is it too hard for you to come on a thread and say..."Great game tonigh.... Mussina pitched well vs the Redsox tonight. Hope Chacon can go out and get them again tomorrow night?"

id be amazed if you could truly. i just dont see why a message board moderator would stoop to childish banter.

also please do not make things up about what i say. I do not come on here a respond to everythign with "Yankees Suck" . I have never done that. I have far to much respect for the Yankees then that. I respect what they have done. I have respect for Jeter,Williams,Posada and Rivera for their great contributions to the 90's dynasty. I have respect for Joe Torre who did a great job coaching those teams and does a great job now dealing with egos like Arod,Sheffield, Giambi and Johnson. Also respect Torre for the constant criticism he gets from Steinbrenner even after a 100 win season.

I was hoping a couple years back that Torre wouldnt resign. I was kind of hoping he would become the Redsox manager at the time.

I dont like the Yankees. I dont like several of their players but that doesnt mean i dont respect the organization and certain players. I dont have to bash everything about the Yankees to make myself feel good.

hopefully you can reply... and when doing so with a normal reply and no more past irrelevant information everyone has heard from you every day since you made this thread. heres hoping you can have a normal baseball conversation. im truly hoping you can do it Mark!

[robertbee]

You're finally right about something bee, the Marlins are playing really good baseball lately, especially for a team with such a tiny payroll. Ig uess Boston doesn't qualify as a rest home since their players all get dealt or leave before their careers can wind down?

What team will Trot Nixon leave for after the season?


Probably the highest bidder thats how it works in todays sports. that is next year though. I am currently watchng the Sox sweep another series.. 3 in a row and if the score holds up it looks like the best defensive team in baseball will go up 3 games on the 2nd best team in NY.. Can't wait to play the Mets who have taken the crown away from the "geri-" Yankees. I think they should start spending some of that cash on some geritol since old age usually equals broken bones, sore backs, pulled hamstrings. If they get really desprate they could just open up Sheff or Giambi's locker and get the good stuff ;) hgh could help them extend thier play and contract for another few years. I wonder if they will go after JULIO FRANCO he has seemed to found the fountian of youth. The Yankees...what a mess!

[Vinnie4]

Hey bee, I see you posting everywhere that Jeter is overrated......yet he dominates Varitek across the board, including World Series rings. In case you forgot....

Jeter 1208 R, 2027 H, 174 HR, 809 RBI, .315 AVG, .303 AVG with RISP, 4 rings

Varitek 463 R, 918 H, 126 HR, 522 RBI, .271 AVG, .262 AVG with RISP, 1 ring

If Jeter is a paper captain, I guess that doesn't say much for Varitek.

[ToightLikeATiger]

I give Yankees big props for 1 thing. the 1 thing they have over the Redsox this year.


and that is NOT HAVING RUDY *** SEANEZ! my god this guy is a horrible pitcher. send him back the NL where he can pitch well against the 7,8 and 9 hitters.

[Mark Weber]

Rolls up sleeves...

Winning is always the goal - and perhaps more importantly, winning it all is the main goal - something Boston hasn't done much in the last 88 years. Maybe getting rid of your stars (or making them want to leave) wasn't the best strategy.

I'm guessing that you didn't acquire Wily Mo Pena to sit the bench very long. And since Ortiz can't figure out first base and remains entrenched as your DH, Manny is locked down with his immovable contract (the one no one would take when you tried to waive him) and he can't really play center (you've seen it), I'm guessing he's gonna end up in RF. The Arroyo trade let you ax two homegrown players in one move - it's classic Red Sox.

I bring up the racist history of the Red Sox organiztion because it's embarrassing for their fans and well-documented enough to have books written about it. Sure, racism was rampant among most if not all clubs not to mention the entire country in the early-to-mid parts of this century, but no baseball team is so closely affiliated with it as Boston is.

Boston's a rest stop because most homegrown players leave as soon as they can, leaving the organization with the mindset to trade them before they can bail. Look at the homegrown talent exodus from the Red Sox over the years. Guys like Wade Boggs, Roger Clemens, Carlton Fisk, Jimmie Foxx, Harry Hooper, Bruce Hurst, Larry Gardner, Shea Hillenbrand, Frank Malzone, Nomar Garciaparra, Ellis Burks, Rick Burleson, Jimmy Collins, Bronson Arroyo, Aaron Sele, Tony Conigliaro, Mo Vaughn, Dennis Eckersley, Rick Ferrell, Billy Goodman, Jim Lonborg, Fred Lynn, Jim Monbouquette, Johnny Pesky, D. Radatz, Pete Runnels, Babe Ruth, Tris Speaker, Reggie Smith & Joe Wood.

Make me a Yankees list and it'll sound like: Alfonso Soriano, Andy Pettitte, Moose Skowron, Elston Howard, Dave Righetti, ummm errrr, and, ummm...

I criticize the Red Sox organization for the culture that makes their own homegrown stars want to leave. That's not the same for most major league teams. It makes the Red Sox special, in their own way...

I made this thread so that the rabid fans of both teams would stay off the "OFFICIAL" threads of the opposing squad. Did you come in here for a tea party? orionquest and I seem to be the only guys rationally giving point/counterpoint in here anyway. If you think Red Sox history is "useless and petty" I can't really help you there.

Bringing up the long period in Boston's history when they were acknowledged as the most racist organization in Major League Baseball doesn't make me feel anything about myself or the team I choose to root for. I'll admit it gives me some satisfaction when the segment of blindly loyal Boston fans (the kind who think "Manny being Manny" is OK, or that the Yankees harbor cheaters while ignoring Jose Canseco and Jeremy Giambi's Sox tenures) scream that it isn't true or isn't relevant.

Note that I've been very clear when discussing racist issues regarding the Red Sox. I don't label the current management/ownership groups, and I NEVER generalize about it regarding the Red Sox fans. There are a lot of passionate and loyal Red Sox fans out there and I respect their dedication. My (rather simple) point is that I don't think you've chosen (or been born into) a team that's worth rooting.

If I've got something credible to say about the current teams or last night's games, I'll post it in the OFFICIAL threads for either team. If I want to talk some smack about my least favorite team in pro sports I'll do it in the designated trash talking thread.

Tiger, I think our core difference as fans is that I believe the past is NEVER irrelevant, while you don't seem to consider it important at all. I'm betting there are a majority of our favorite team's fans that feel exactly the same way. Yankees fans tend to hold their history in high regard, while Red Sox fans (traditionally) embrace the present and look forward to the future.

[robertbee]

Roll up your sleves a little higher...Bronson Arroyo was picked up from Pittsburgh...

Rolls up sleeves...

Winning is always the goal - and perhaps more importantly, winning it all is the main goal - something Boston hasn't done much in the last 88 years. Maybe getting rid of your stars (or making them want to leave) wasn't the best strategy.

I'm guessing that you didn't acquire Wily Mo Pena to sit the bench very long. And since Ortiz can't figure out first base and remains entrenched as your DH, Manny is locked down with his immovable contract (the one no one would take when you tried to waive him) and he can't really play center (you've seen it), I'm guessing he's gonna end up in RF. The Arroyo trade let you ax two homegrown players in one move - it's classic Red Sox.

I bring up the racist history of the Red Sox organiztion because it's embarrassing for their fans and well-documented enough to have books written about it. Sure, racism was rampant among most if not all clubs not to mention the entire country in the early-to-mid parts of this century, but no baseball team is so closely affiliated with it as Boston is.

Boston's a rest stop because most homegrown players leave as soon as they can, leaving the organization with the mindset to trade them before they can bail. Look at the homegrown talent exodus from the Red Sox over the years. Guys like Wade Boggs, Roger Clemens, Carlton Fisk, Jimmie Foxx, Harry Hooper, Bruce Hurst, Larry Gardner, Shea Hillenbrand, Frank Malzone, Nomar Garciaparra, Ellis Burks, Rick Burleson, Jimmy Collins, Bronson Arroyo, Aaron Sele, Tony Conigliaro, Mo Vaughn, Dennis Eckersley, Rick Ferrell, Billy Goodman, Jim Lonborg, Fred Lynn, Jim Monbouquette, Johnny Pesky, D. Radatz, Pete Runnels, Babe Ruth, Tris Speaker, Reggie Smith & Joe Wood.

Make me a Yankees list and it'll sound like: Alfonso Soriano, Andy Pettitte, Moose Skowron, Elston Howard, Dave Righetti, ummm errrr, and, ummm...

I criticize the Red Sox organization for the culture that makes their own homegrown stars want to leave. That's not the same for most major league teams. It makes the Red Sox special, in their own way...

I made this thread so that the rabid fans of both teams would stay off the "OFFICIAL" threads of the opposing squad. Did you come in here for a tea party? orionquest and I seem to be the only guys rationally giving point/counterpoint in here anyway. If you think Red Sox history is "useless and petty" I can't really help you there.

Bringing up the long period in Boston's history when they were acknowledged as the most racist organization in Major League Baseball doesn't make me feel anything about myself or the team I choose to root for. I'll admit it gives me some satisfaction when the segment of blindly loyal Boston fans (the kind who think "Manny being Manny" is OK, or that the Yankees harbor cheaters while ignoring Jose Canseco and Jeremy Giambi's Sox tenures) scream that it isn't true or isn't relevant.

Note that I've been very clear when discussing racist issues regarding the Red Sox. I don't label the current management/ownership groups, and I NEVER generalize about it regarding the Red Sox fans. There are a lot of passionate and loyal Red Sox fans out there and I respect their dedication. My (rather simple) point is that I don't think you've chosen (or been born into) a team that's worth rooting.

If I've got something credible to say about the current teams or last night's games, I'll post it in the OFFICIAL threads for either team. If I want to talk some smack about my least favorite team in pro sports I'll do it in the designated trash talking thread.

Tiger, I think our core difference as fans is that I believe the past is NEVER irrelevant, while you don't seem to consider it important at all. I'm betting there are a majority of our favorite team's fans that feel exactly the same way. Yankees fans tend to hold their history in high regard, while Red Sox fans (traditionally) embrace the present and look forward to the future.
Mark Weber





Mark, thanks for clarifying your point. I've always appreciated your thoughtful responses, and I've been confused over the past couple of posts.

Now, I don't have the time to do an in-depth study of the concept that your describing as it would hold to all of the teams with histories of forty years or more. (I'm considering the Mets, Astros and Angels as examples of the cut off point, versus the Blue Jays, Mariners or Diamonbacks, for instance.) But, I'm confident that the Yankees would greatly outweigh everey other franchise in catagoty four, especially when taken as a precentage of the players that have passed through based on years in the league.

The Yankees have always been the exception to the rule of how the business of baseball works. The combination of playing for the largest market and fanbase, combined with solid management and ownership for four or five generations, have allowed for that. Admittantly, I don't have the stats to back it up, but I'm confident that the Cubs, Cardinals, White Sox, Giants, Dodgers, Orioles, Pirates, Phillies and Athletics have numbers for their #4 tier players much closer to the Red Sox.

Now, I do like your heirarchy system, but I don't think it holds universally for all players. While the depature of a few, like Boggs and Clemens, still feel bitter to some, others, like Fred Lynn, Tony Conigliaro, Bill Lee, Jim Lonborg, Carlton Fisk and Dwight Evans, are remembered by the Red Sox fans base strictly as Sox. No bitterness or animosity has ever been present towards those players for their departure, and that says a lot considering that Fisk played longer in Chicago than Boston. And while tempers flare hot for Pedro right now (especially since he's due in Fenway on Wednesday), I'm confident that he will be embraced fondly in a few years. And all of those players will be more beloved than Bob Stanley, who falls into catagory #1.

I agree that their is something truly special about the players who come in and leave with your team. It will be a special day in New York and Derek and Mo and Jorge all step down after the incredible run they've had and continue to enjoy. But it doesn't always refect the player's legacy.

The greatest example is the player I think you left off, who squarely belongs in catagory #3: Curt Schilling. Regardless of his short time in Boston, he's made in indelible (blood) mark on the franchise and the city. His legacy in Boston will endure in spite of all that time in Philidelphia and Arizona. Maybe it's karma for playing in the Red Sox farm system.


Mark, again, I'm still confused. Why is the notion that the Red Sox have watched many of their stars leave, by choice or not, such an issue for you? Is the issue that they're honored after departure? Or that the fans base still supports them?

This is an issue for EVERY team except the Yankees. The Yankees have always been the only team that has the funds to keep players around after their prime. If a Yankee on the roster doesn't perform up to expectations, another one will be found by trade or free agnecy. Most other clubs don't have that luxury, and none have it to the extent the Yankees do. On any other team in MLB, Bernie Williams would have been traded or released. No other team, including the high-spending Red Sox, Angels, mets or Dodgers would have kept both Williams and Damon on the same roster.

Perhaps you just aren't used to it. But ask the fans of any other team, and they'll explain the frustration that they've always lived with.

But, also, consider this- how many of the players you mention have embraced the Red Sox and Boston fan base in their years after playing? Eckersley, Lynn, Radatz and Lonborg always felt close to Boston, and show up frequently at events. Eck does post-game analysis for the team. Pesky is a Red Sox institution, and watching him receving his ring made the toughest of grown men cry on Opening Day 2005.

Besides, plenty of famous Yankees, including Babe-freakin'-Ruth himself, didn't end their careers in the Bronx. Ruth finished in Boston, oddly enough, with the Braves. Reggie Jackson played for the Angels. Yogi Berra coached the Mets. Roger Maris went to St. Louis. Casey Stengel played for different teams before managing the Yankees. Boggs hopped off to Tampa. The Rocket and Petite snuck out to Houston. Many of your clubs icons aren't Mantle-DiMaggio type nothin'-but-Yankees. Historically, do the departures of Ruth, Maris and Jackson bother Yankees fans?


Both from Orionquest.
He brings up some good points you tend to ignore Mark. In Bold.

We all can't pick up the silver spoon and stick it in our mouths. Some of us stay with our teams thru thick and thin. Good times bad times. After all ... on this journey of life we all have to hit a rest stop once in a while, then we end up in the old age home (Bronx) and maybe we get our numbers retired in a cemetary in the outfield. Its like supporting your family. Nobodys family perfect but we stand by them. We all just can't pick up a Yankees hat and say we are Yankees fans. I'd rather earn it the hard way that's when the silver spoon tastes alot better.

[Hardcore Legend]

We all can't pick up the silver spoon and stick it in our mouths. Some of us stay with our teams thru thick and thin. Good times bad times. After all ... on this journey of life we all have to hit a rest stop once in a while, then we end up in the old age home (Bronx) and maybe we get our numbers retired in a cemetary in the outfield. Its like supporting your family. Nobodys family perfect but we stand by them. We all just can't pick up a Yankees hat and say we are Yankees fans. I'd rather earn it the hard way that's when the silver spoon tastes alot better.

Yeah, but when your family sucks for 5 generations...you change your name and move to another city when you're 18. Then of course, when one of them hits the lottery after almost 100 years in the poor house, they all come out of the woodwork and talk about the proud tradition of their clan.

[ToightLikeATiger]

another walk off game winner for David Ortiz. This time just a single to the gap but still another game winner for Big Papi.

Why dont managers learn? Its not worth trying to beat him

hey Mark... real good call on that "David Ortiz is overrated" comment. it keeps looking like a great comment each day the Redsox play :)

he just extended his league lead in go ahead rbi's. he also continues to win ball games in the clutch.

[robertbee]

http://www.spawn.com/toys/baseball/mlb12/dortiz/images/mlb12_dortiz_photo_02_dp.jpg

[robertbee]

Yeah, but when your family sucks for 5 generations...you change your name and move to another city when you're 18. Then of course, when one of them hits the lottery after almost 100 years in the poor house, they all come out of the woodwork and talk about the proud tradition of their clan.

Or you can take the easy road and become a Yankee fan.

[laurensmommy]

Why dont managers learn? Its not worth trying to beat him

.


Definitely one of the best hitters in the league but what should the manager have done today?? walk him to pitch to Manny with the bases loaded and no outs ??

[ToightLikeATiger]

Definitely one of the best hitters in the league but what should the manager have done today?? walk him to pitch to Manny with the bases loaded and no outs ??

what are you talking about? there were 2 outs. please know what you are talking about before posting.

and yes you pitch to Manny with them loaded and 2 outs

[laurensmommy]

what are you talking about? there were 2 outs. please know what you are talking about before posting.

and yes you pitch to Manny with them loaded and 2 outs


My bad !!! My bad !!!! I was watching the game on the cbs sportsline gameday thingy and it showed ortiz up with 0 outs and a 1 ball 1 strike count and then went final with ortiz singling to center. 2 outs, they should have gone after Manny.



I will walk away now ......:o

[ToightLikeATiger]

My bad !!! My bad !!!! I was watching the game on the cbs sportsline gameday thingy and it showed ortiz up with 0 outs and a 1 ball 1 strike count and then went final with ortiz singling to center. 2 outs, they should have gone after Manny.



I will walk away now ......:o

lol its ok... i forgive you since it was cbssportsline lol. site is way behind real game time

[laurensmommy]

lol its ok... i forgive you since it was cbssportsline lol. site is way behind real game time


I like espn s new feature......it has a little baseball that goes to the plate and then it goes out into the field based on the play. Its like watching a video game

[robertbee]

Definitely one of the best hitters in the league but what should the manager have done today?? walk him to pitch to Manny with the bases loaded and no outs ??

You have to question the manager for walking Lorretta. Why walk him and pitch to Papi? That is were the manager screwed up. Lorretta soesnt strike out and is a very good hitter but would you want to face him or papi or manny. I think I would pitch to Lorretta.

[robertbee]

9.7 strikes outs on the 9 game win streak. The starting pitching has been very good. Only weak spots. Rudy and taverez. Timlin looks back to form. Hanson gets his first win. Speaking of young pitching tonights College World Series will be featuring the Sox draft pick on the hill. Starting right now on espn.

[orionquest]

Yeah, but when your family sucks for 5 generations...you change your name and move to another city when you're 18. Then of course, when one of them hits the lottery after almost 100 years in the poor house, they all come out of the woodwork and talk about the proud tradition of their clan.

Oh, please. Lame family members come around whenever anyone wins the lottery. What makes Red Sox Nation so unique is just how many family members stuck around through the "great depression". Whether or not that makes fastidious and loyal or a tad bit insane is up for debate. I like to think of it as building character. :D

Besides, it's not like other clubs with similar struggles. What makes us Sox fans unique is that, to continue the lottery analogy, we kept bringing up 5 of 6 numbers, and 1 of 2 digits on the last number, over and over again. It's about the heartache and the triumph.

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

I had to qoute this....just imagine in a few years when "New York" will be emblazoned across his shirt or how thinning pinstripes will be!




Just thought this picture was funny for the obvious (BRONX):

http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/aleung/Ortiz.JPG

[orionquest]

I should just spend my time talking to you OQ - it's nice having a discussion with a diehard Sox fan that isn't blinded by his own faith. You and I seem to be similar fans - realists who respect the history of the game and live & die with each game.

Wow, I'm flattered. I enjoy chatting and debating with you, too, and I find your description accurate. Perhaps it's a combination of the realist and the literary in me. I know my Sox are what they are, and I know that they're not the same without the "big-bad Yankees" always looming overhead. I love the rivalry; I love the notion that the two teams I alway root for are the Sox and whomever is playing the Yankees. Having an arch rival makes everythingmore thrilling, which is why the most of the best sports traditions always seem to have them,

I don't doubt that Schilling will forever be a favorite in Boston, but his overall performance as a Red Sox player isn't that different than what he did in Arizona - it's just that Boston's championship was more anticipated and celebrated (and his bloody sock made for great drama).

Schilling's best counterpart among the modern-day Yankees is Jimmy Key. Both were longtime veterans who arrived to their teams and were instrumental in delivering World Series victories. Key won 48 games in four years with New York. Schilling has won 39 games (so far) in three seasons for Boston. Both players lost most of one season to injury. The reason Boston will never forget Schilling while Key is warmly remembered in New York is that there was a severe difference in the Championship droughts they helped end. Schilling's 2004 title ended 86 years of Red Sox frustration. Key's 1996 championship ended New York's 18-year spell. Schilling's win total in Boston will likely end up closer to David Cone's 64 wins with the Yankees, but Cone helped deliver four championships, so I don't think that's a fair comparison = unless Boston wins the next two World Series.

Wow, that's a great insight. I agree that, impirically, the comparison is quite valid. But, with all the hype around Schill's arrival, the length of the championship drought, and the drama of the bloody socks, it all became so much more. Also, Schill's desire, for better or worse, to share his opinion about just about everything, has made him a lightning rod for the press. He revels in the spotlight, and it's allowed him to become larger than life in Sox fans' eyes. I could tell you how I notice his manipulation of the media, but I'm just enjoying it far too much.

You'll note that I didn't reflect Boston shipping off Hall-of-Famers Curt Schilling, Jeff Bagwell and Pee Wee Reese while they were minor-league prospects. That'd just be low. :)

Oooh, that stings. Bagwell is the one that always haunts. It was one of those trades that nobody could ever see coming. Instead, I like to think of how we moved Heathcliff Slocumb to Seattle for prospects Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek. :D

[orionquest]

I had to qoute this....just imagine in a few years when "New York" will be emblazoned across his shirt or how thinning pinstripes will be!

And there it is!

There's the singular attitude that only Yankees fans can have. There is no other team in all of sports that has fans with that approach. Of course, what makes it all the more aggravating is how often it actually comes to be, so it's not unfounded.

[orionquest]

Jack Morris has better career stats then Curt and he can't get in the Hall. No way Curt gets in.

As much as the facts aren't in dispute, I'm still confident he's getting in. His stats aree borderline, to be sure, but his flash and drama for the moment are everything the Hall loves and needs. He'll get in, he'll get in early, and Morris will have every right to be upset.

And that bloody sock from Game 2 of the Series will be there by his plaque.

[Yukoner]

Schilling is the Jimmy Key of the Red Sox? That's a huge leap in logic, Mark. Jimmy Key was signed in 1993, and the Yankees didn't win until 1996, when old Jimmy was a .500 pitcher, and was the #3 or #4 starter.

Schilling, on the other hand, stepped into the breach as the ace, won 21 games, and led the Sox to a win in his first year.

I'm a huge Jimmy Key fan, but comparing him to Schilling is at best silly and at worst, dishonest.

I think the more accurate description would be that Randy Johnson is the *failed* Schilling of the Yankees.

Oh, and it's too bad the Yankees are such a rest stop for their heroes, as Jimmy Key had to sign with the Orioles in 1997.

[Yukoner]

Schilling's win total in Boston will likely end up closer to David Cone's 64 wins with the Yankees, but Cone helped deliver four championships, so I don't think that's a fair comparison = unless Boston wins the next two World Series.



I'm sure the Yankees really thanked David Cone for "helping them deliver" the 2000 WS, when he went 4-14 with a 6.91 ERA.

[Mavrik28]

As much as the facts aren't in dispute, I'm still confident he's getting in. His stats aree borderline, to be sure, but his flash and drama for the moment are everything the Hall loves and needs. He'll get in, he'll get in early, and Morris will have every right to be upset.

And that bloody sock from Game 2 of the Series will be there by his plaque.

Sorry, but there is no way he gets in. The one thing that the hall voters always do is go to the stats. Thats the only way they can compare different players from different eras. Its not always fair.

Jim Rice, Ron Santo, Jack Morris all are guys that should be in, but aren't. Maybe if Schilling had won at least 1 Cy Young he could make it. But the Hall doesn't put guys in for the flash or the moment. They go based on stats. Jack Morris had moments, look at Game 7 of the 1991 World Series, that was one of the best games pitched EVER. He won World Series MVP that year. He won 3 rings. But because he never won 300 games or even a Cy Young, the hall has kept him out. The Hall is about individual achievements.

Schilling will not make it in because of his numbers. No Cy Young award wins and he's not even going to finish with 250 career wins. And compare Curt to other pitchers of this generation, like RJ or Rocket or Pedro or Maddux or Glavine or Smoltz. They all have won the Cy Young and all have some impressive stats. They'll get in. Curt doesn't have that Cy Young. Mussina is another solid guy fromt his generation but he's not getting in and he'll finish with more career wins then Curt.

If Curt was to win 250 games and win atleast 1 Cy Young then I could see him making it easily. But since neither of those are happening, I don't see him making it right away or at all. Bert Blyleven is another pitcher that has more K's and wins then Curt and he's not in and he's probably never getting in. If Bert had won a Cy Young then maybe he too would have gotten in.

A guy like Bret Saberhagen won 2 Cy Youngs, but doesn't have the career stats to put him in the Hall so winning the Cy Young isn't necessary to get in the hall. Nolan never won but he got in because his stats were OVERWHELMING. All time K's and #14 all time in wins, you are going to get in.

Curt has the K's. But its not enough to put him in the hall. Sure he helped the Red Sox actually win something, but winning takes a team effort and Foulke, Lowe and Pedro were also VERY VERY important to the Red Sox beating the Yankees and eventually beating the easily beatable Tony LaRussa managed Cardinals.

[ToightLikeATiger]

I'm sure the Yankees really thanked David Cone for "helping them deliver" the 2000 WS, when he went 4-14 with a 6.91 ERA.

oh no... you just showed Mark up.... now he is gonna bring up racism and rest stop again for the 22,237th time. Then he will proceed to say he gave you a beatdown.

course that is if he responds at all.

[BurningSoul]

I'm sure the Yankees really thanked David Cone for "helping them deliver" the 2000 WS, when he went 4-14 with a 6.91 ERA.

Was he not a part of that team? Stats were not very good, no, but he did contribute and pitched a whopping :) 1.3 scorless innings in relief during the playoffs and world series to HELP them deliver that 26th Championship.

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

And there it is!

There's the singular attitude that only Yankees fans can have. There is no other team in all of sports that has fans with that approach. Of course, what makes it all the more aggravating is how often it actually comes to be, so it's not unfounded.
As a Yankee fan one thing is for sure. George will always deliver the best talent to put the team in a position to win a Championship. I'm sorry the Sox don't feel the same about their guys or their fans. :)

[Vinnie4]

Johnson looked very good again last night. 7 innings pitched, 0 ER, 9K, 0 BB. Only 4 runs given up in his last 20 1/3 innings. And his 9 wins would tie him for the team lead on the Red Sox. Not bad for someone robertbee claims is washed up.

[Tanner2126]

I cant believe im gonna say this but....

LETS GO METS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Vinnie4]

I cant believe im gonna say this but....

LETS GO METS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My brother is a Mets fan, so I can watch the game with him and actually cheer for the same team.;)

[Mark Weber]

Roll up your sleves a little higher...Bronson Arroyo was picked up from Pittsburgh...

Mark, again, I'm still confused. Why is the notion that the Red Sox have watched many of their stars leave, by choice or not, such an issue for you? Is the issue that they're honored after departure? Or that the fans base still supports them?

But, also, consider this- how many of the players you mention have embraced the Red Sox and Boston fan base in their years after playing? Eckersley, Lynn, Radatz and Lonborg always felt close to Boston, and show up frequently at events. Eck does post-game analysis for the team. Pesky is a Red Sox institution, and watching him receving his ring made the toughest of grown men cry on Opening Day 2005.

Besides, plenty of famous Yankees, including Babe-freakin'-Ruth himself, didn't end their careers in the Bronx. Ruth finished in Boston, oddly enough, with the Braves. Reggie Jackson played for the Angels. Yogi Berra coached the Mets. Roger Maris went to St. Louis. Casey Stengel played for different teams before managing the Yankees. Boggs hopped off to Tampa. The Rocket and Petite snuck out to Houston. Many of your clubs icons aren't Mantle-DiMaggio type nothin'-but-Yankees. Historically, do the departures of Ruth, Maris and Jackson bother Yankees fans?

Both from Orionquest.
He brings up some good points you tend to ignore Mark. In Bold.

We all can't pick up the silver spoon and stick it in our mouths. Some of us stay with our teams thru thick and thin. Good times bad times. After all ... on this journey of life we all have to hit a rest stop once in a while, then we end up in the old age home (Bronx) and maybe we get our numbers retired in a cemetary in the outfield. Its like supporting your family. Nobodys family perfect but we stand by them. We all just can't pick up a Yankees hat and say we are Yankees fans. I'd rather earn it the hard way that's when the silver spoon tastes alot better.

OK first, my bad on the Arroyo mistake. I thought Boston had got him as a Pirates prospect. I didn't realize he wasn't homegrown - and yes, I consider a prospect you trade for before he debuts in the majors to be a homegrown player. I'll always consider Jason Varitek a homegrown Red Sox player.

To answer OQ's "bold" points: I have an issue with Boston's history of giving their best players the boot or choosing to watch them walk away because I think it's a slap at their loyal fan base. No one likes seeing their favorite players leave their favorite team, but the Red Sox have not only embraced the notion but they seem to have made it part of their business model - so much so that some blindly loyal Sox fans have become OK with it. The regularity that Boston ships out it's most popular players, coupled with their extended championship drought, mixed in with the long history of racism under the Yawkey ownership makes me believe (this is my key point, repeated over and over and over) that the diehard loyal and faithful Red Sox fans have chosen (or have been born into) a team that isn't worth rooting for.

Just like I consider Varitek homegrown, I don't hold it against any team that eventually lets a star walk when he's got nothing left. I've never criticized Boston for letting Dwight Evans play one last season in Baltimore - just like I'll never consider Babe Ruth a Boston Brave or Yogi Berra a New York Met. Besides, my favorite Yankees aren't the "rental types." Reggie Jackson, Dave Winfield, Wade Boggs, Roger Clemens, and Roger Maris aren't first-tier Yankee Legends (at least to me). Of the players you listed, only Pettitte truly stung when he left. To me, the guys like Lou Gehrig, Frank Crosetti, Bill ****ey, Earle Combs, Tommy Henrich, Spud Chandler, Phil Rizzuto, Roy White, Mel Stottlemyre, Don Mattingly, Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Thurman Munson, Whitey Ford and Ron Guidry are the fabric of the Yankees - the guys that I think of when I'm wearing my Yankee jersey or hat. Beloved stars who gave their all in bringing championships to my favorite team. I know that might be hard for some Boston fans to comprehend, because you don't have many lifetime Sox (11 of consequence by my count, if Varitek and Nixon stay) and precious few that won championships (is it just Nixon and Youkilis??).

There are your bold responses OQ. I don't have any response to bee's post because he didn't say anything. :)

[orionquest]

As a Yankee fan one thing is for sure. George will always deliver the best talent to put the team in a position to win a Championship. I'm sorry the Sox don't feel the same about their guys or their fans. :)

Agreed. George will go to any lengths to do what he needs to do. Even as a Sox fan, I admire him for it. I can't criticize him for going the extra lengths.

However, the difference is that he can. The Yankees have resources far beyond every team, including the Red Sox. Now, the Sox are certainly not in the poorhouse, and it drives me nuts when fellow Sox fans cry poverty in comparison to the whole league. But, against the Yankees, everyone else is at a disadvanatge. The Yankees have the fan base, the NYC economy, the cable deal, the worldwide licensing, etc. in place to keep that advantage.

This is a big part of what separates them. Money isn't everything, as the New York basketball counterpart shows so well. But, in combination with the solid management of the club, it's an enormous edge. The Sox, and the other big market teams, will do what they can, and they often work hard to get the most for their money. But they'll never edge out the Yankees in the finance department.

The point is... it's not George being "more willing" to do what he has to do. It's that he's both willing and able.

[orionquest]

To answer OQ's "bold" points: I have an issue with Boston's history of giving their best players the boot or choosing to watch them walk away because I think it's a slap at their loyal fan base. No one likes seeing their favorite players leave their favorite team, but the Red Sox have not only embraced the notion but they seem to have made it part of their business model - so much so that some blindly loyal Sox fans have become OK with it. The regularity that Boston ships out it's most popular players, coupled with their extended championship drought, mixed in with the long history of racism under the Yawkey ownership makes me believe (this is my key point, repeated over and over and over) that the diehard loyal and faithful Red Sox fans have chosen (or have been born into) a team that isn't worth rooting for

Just like I consider Varitek homegrown, I don't hold it against any team that eventually lets a star walk when he's got nothing left. I've never criticized Boston for letting Dwight Evans play one last season in Baltimore - just like I'll never consider Babe Ruth a Boston Brave or Yogi Berra a New York Met. Besides, my favorite Yankees aren't the "rental types." Reggie Jackson, Dave Winfield, Wade Boggs, Roger Clemens, and Roger Maris aren't first-tier Yankee Legends (at least to me). Of the players you listed, only Pettitte truly stung when he left. To me, the guys like Lou Gehrig, Frank Crosetti, Bill ****ey, Earle Combs, Tommy Henrich, Spud Chandler, Phil Rizzuto, Roy White, Mel Stottlemyre, Don Mattingly, Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Thurman Munson, Whitey Ford and Ron Guidry are the fabric of the Yankees - the guys that I think of when I'm wearing my Yankee jersey or hat. Beloved stars who gave their all in bringing championships to my favorite team. I know that might be hard for some Boston fans to comprehend, because you don't have many lifetime Sox (11 of consequence by my count, if Varitek and Nixon stay) and precious few that won championships (is it just Nixon and Youkilis??).

For the record, RB bolded my text. Not sure why, but it does the job.

I understand all of your issues, Mark, and they're valid. Part of what makes us love our teams has to do with their history and legacy. But I think that what separates the Yankees and Red Sox fan is that the Yankees fan often embraces his club because of such history, while the Sox fan does it in spite of it.

A large part of being a Red Sox fan is about being a New Englander. The Sox, in their highs, lows and ultimate futilities, became part of the landscape. The players were loved, the management disliked, and the whole mess just didn't matter because they were "ours". Boston, like many northeast and rustbelt cities, seems to raise its families with a strong local loyalty, and the Red Sox, with all their history, good and bad, became part of it.

And, in New York, so did the Yankees. But, had the Yankees swaped success stories with the Cardinals, their local fan base would likely be just as rabid. It would be the St. Louis boys, however, who would have found more national acclaim. Were this the case, I think that more Yankees fans might understand Bostonians' love of the Sox. (I should note that I think the game is better off having it all happen in New York, as it is more the focal point in America than any other city.)

So, as all those stars depart, we love our Sox just the same. Perhaps it's like Jerry Seinfeld pointed out, that in the end we're all rooting for laundry. But, when a guy puts on that uniform and plays his heart out, even if he's a .225 hitter, he gets a love that's rare in most baseball towns.

But, keeping them isn't simply a matter of loyalty to the players. I agree with all of your assessments regarding homegrown players, and the way many of them walk away. But, as I pointed out in other posts, the fiscal realities are an enormous part of this, and I find that many Yankees fans have trouble understanding, or accepting this. The resources of the Yankees allow for what other clubs often cannot do, and many of your favorite players had an opprtunity to stick around where they likely wouldn't on any other team.

My favorite players run the gamut. Some, like Varitek, were prospects and came up the system. Others, like Pedro, were brought in, even played well elsewhere (like he did in Montreal), but made their mark with the team. I don't think that most of the "rental" type players ever found big long-term support in Boston, either. While Jimmy Foxx has his number retired, you don't hear his name mentioned in the same way as Williams, Yaz, Pesky or Doerr. Schilling may end up the one grand exception to that rule, but he's embraced Red Sox culture in a way I've never before witnessed.

I'm sure that we'd all love to have had Tiant and Fisk, for instance, finish their careers in Boston, but, just the same, Pudge's number is retired and Luis sells great food on Yawkey Way. Much becomes forgiven when players embrace the fans, I'm holding out hope that Pedro, Nomar, and Lowe will find the same reception years from now.

It's fascinating to understand the ways our fan bases view each other. I don't think that your persepctive regarding the Sox is rare. The Yankees have conducted themselves with such class over the generations that it can be easy to dismiss other club's situations. I don't think that most rational (and myabe "rational" is the key) Sox fans take issue with the Yankees club itself. It's the bombastic fans that have worn us down year after year, knowing that the love and affection we shower our team could be taunted so easily. And we both know... taunt they did, heavily, frequently, and cruelly. And that build up our animosity over the years far more than Mantle or Dimaggio or Munson or Jeter ever could.

But, as I've stated before, all that passion, no matter how it's expressed, is better than the alternative. Again... we could all have been raised Royals fans.

[Mark Weber]

Schilling is the Jimmy Key of the Red Sox? That's a huge leap in logic, Mark. Jimmy Key was signed in 1993, and the Yankees didn't win until 1996, when old Jimmy was a .500 pitcher, and was the #3 or #4 starter.

Schilling, on the other hand, stepped into the breach as the ace, won 21 games, and led the Sox to a win in his first year.

I'm a huge Jimmy Key fan, but comparing him to Schilling is at best silly and at worst, dishonest.

I think the more accurate description would be that Randy Johnson is the *failed* Schilling of the Yankees.

Oh, and it's too bad the Yankees are such a rest stop for their heroes, as Jimmy Key had to sign with the Orioles in 1997.

If you want to argue semantically Yukoner we certainly can. Key arrived in 1993 to a Yankees team that had finished under .500 for four straight years. New York finished second behind Toronto in 1993, but the 88-74 record would have earned them the wild card if it had existed in '93. In 1994, the Yankees' 70-43 record was second only to the absolutely loaded Montreal Expos when Bud Selig and Don Fehr aborted the season. Key was 17-4 that year and on his way to a likely Cy Young award and possible a World Series Championship (I tend to think the Expos would have nipped the Yanks in the Series). In 1995, Key only made five starts and lost the rest of the year to injury when the Yankees won the Wild Card and returned to the playoffs. In 1996, Key scuffled though a 12-11 season, but came on strong in the Playoffs, winning three games including the World Series clinching Game 6 over Atlanta. Sure Schilling won in his first year in Boston, and (sort of) helped deliver a Wild Card berth last year. Other than Key's World Championship and him helping deliver a Wild Card (in 1997, he didn't really help in 1995) what makes you feel Schilling somehow did more in Boston? Because he won in his first year? And no, Jimmy Key isn't a Yankees legend because he helped end a championship drought, so it's no indictment of the franchise when they traded the 26-year-old to Toronto. Key was a rental who delivered for New York - not a Yankee Legend who got away. Schilling is a rental for Boston as well - but he'll go down in history as one of the most beloved Red Sox. That's the difference between an 18-year championship drought and an 86-year chapionship drought. Schilling would be a more plausible Boston Legend (regardless of titles) if they hadn't shipped him and Brady Anderson to Baltimore for Mike Bod****er back in 1988.

Your best analysis was that Randy Johnson is the failed Curt Schilling of the Yankees. I don't disagree with one speck of that statement.

[Mark Weber]

oh no... you just showed Mark up.... now he is gonna bring up racism and rest stop again for the 22,237th time. Then he will proceed to say he gave you a beatdown.

course that is if he responds at all.

Yeah, I'm really hard to find Tiger.

When I counter your off-base arguments, I don't really expect you to read my post and then hang your head and say "Gosh, Weber really got Tiger there."

That's what the rest of the board does. :)

[Mark Weber]

OQ I find I hardly ever disagree with anything you type. Does it make you just a little sad that your main backup on this thread is crazed homers like bee and Tiger?

[Vinnie4]

I understand that the Yankees make a great deal of money, but I believe that stems from part of Mark's argument. The career Yankees have loyal fans, fans that might move on to follow that player to a different team. Also, with the teams storied past, and winning ways, fans have stayed very loyal to the Yankees. That is apparent by the near sellouts for every game. With ticket sales so high, as well as merchandising, and the cable deal, etc. the Yankees are able to spend more. Yes, some fans are bothered by this, but with revenue sharing, this helps other teams as well. But there are some owners who don't use this money they receive to benefit the team. I know it isn't enough to level the playing field, but it would help in fielding a better team, which would mean more fan support, better ticket sales, and an overall increase in revenue.

[orionquest]

OQ I find I hardly ever disagree with anything you type. Does it make you just a little sad that your main backup on this thread is crazed homers like bee and Tiger?

Well, first off, I'm flattered again. I rarely disagree with anything you write, either. In fact, I really commend you on all the work you do on this board. It's been a great place to chat, express frustration, occassionally get riled up, and "virtually" meet a lot of cool folks.

While I would certainly enjoy having another person or two on this thread who take my approach to chatting about the Sox and Yanks, I would miss RB and Tiger.

I think that this thread fans flames like few sports-related subjects do, and we on the Sox side of things still react like a dog beaten with a newspaper. After a while, the master just shows the paper, and the dog reacts. We Sox fans often react to mere mentioning of the Yankees, even after 2004. I find myself just as reactionary at times.

Besides, it's good to know that Sox Nation has my back, and I have theirs. And for all of RB's rapid-fire posting, he can pull out a real gem when he takes the time to do so.

[Sbells]

Well, first off, I'm flattered again. I rarely disagree with anything you write, either. In fact, I really commend you on all the work you do on this board. It's been a great place to chat, express frustration, occassionally get riled up, and "virtually" meet a lot of cool folks.


Ewwwwwwwwww!!!!!!

"You are everything, everything, everything, I wish I could be... You are the wind beneath my wings..."

:p

[orionquest]

Ewwwwwwwwww!!!!!!

"You are everything, everything, everything, I wish I could be... You are the wind beneath my wings..."

:p

LOL!!!!! OK, this post made my day! :p

[robertbee]

Sigh, beantown. Arod is on pace for AARON, RUTH, ROSE offensive numbers, I dont even think Papi is on pace for Cecil Fielder numbers....

He's also on pace with Mattingly on winning a World Series

[Poochiesdead]

He's also on pace with Mattingly on winning a World SeriesHey now! I like Mattingly. :(

[orionquest]

He's also on pace with Mattingly on winning a World Series

As much as this is a low blow, I have to admit that it made me laugh hard.

[robertbee]

Hey now! I like Mattingly. :(

No hard feeling...:)

[Mark Weber]

He's also on pace with Mattingly on winning a World Series

Or Ted Williams & Carl Yastrzemski.

It stings I know.

Walk it off.

[orionquest]

Or Ted Williams & Carl Yastrzemski.

It stings I know.

Walk it off.

Damn, now I'm going to be sore all day. Ouch!

[robertbee]

It stings I know.

Walk it off.

That's what mattingly should have done. Back pain stings. Then again he was run out of New York in favor of Tino talk about stings. The Sting of King George

[Mark Weber]

Kinda like Boston letting Fisk walk because someone's relative was a catcher in Boston's minor league system. Or letting Boggs walk after his first sub-.300 season EVER.

Mattingly hurt his back in 1989 as I remember, and New York kept him as their first baseman for six more seasons - choosing to replace his fading power at other positions rather than replace him outright. Mattingly continued to be a good hitter, a brilliant fielder, and one of the finest players (and captains) in Yankee history. It's not like Tony Conigliaro, who recovered from his brutal beaning to win comeback player of the year and then have Boston ship him to the team that beaned him in the first place. Or Hall-of-Fame OF Harry Hooper, who returned from a year of military service during World War I to sign a contract that made him a "lifetime Red Sock" only to have Boston trade him to Chicago DAYS later...

Stop making pro-Yankee points bee, it hurts your own cause.

[BlakChamber]

Web-owned!!

[whoh8sbacon]

Now I see why Robertbee's the "underdog".... He's clearly overmatched...:eek:

[whoh8sbacon]

Wow, I've never seen posts moved to a different thread before.

[Vinnie4]

But that was still ahead of the Red Sox organization's pace, which was what, one championship every time Haley's comet comes around? Oh im sorry, Haley's comet comes every 75 Years... I didnt mean to get yer hopes up.:D

Meanwhile, your rival Yanks (not mine, dont care about em) manage to win one an average of every 4 years. I can see now where all the self-loathing and angst comes from. Its like a regional case of ***** envy.
Now that was funny.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Yeah, I'm really hard to find Tiger.

When I counter your off-base arguments, I don't really expect you to read my post and then hang your head and say "Gosh, Weber really got Tiger there."

That's what the rest of the board does. :)

mark several times you said you wanted to or have given me a "beat down" like you did robertbee.

when quite frankly we are not competing here at all. do you think there is some kind of rivalry between you and I?

cause im not even trash talking in this thread lol. i discuss baseball. you are the one that feels a need to bash the Redsox and think is some sort of battle.

you can call me names like a "crazed homer" all you want. am i suppose to be offended by that? i love the Redsox. I support my team. Big deal. I am far from a crazed homer though. I dont think everything the Redsox have done or currently do is great. but i still love my team.

not all of us can sit back from across the country and pick our teams. i was born a Redsox fan.

so you can sit at your desk in Arizona and bash me for being a Redsox fan. You can sit there and bash the Redsox with stuff that doesnt matter.

You are impressing noone and you certainly are not "beating" anyone.

Im just here to discuss baseball and the rivalry. i have given the Yankees props and i dont sit here and scream "Yankees Suck" like you say i do.

Get over yourself Mark. You are better then noone here.

[fenwayp]

LOL...Mark, where is my Bruins Bourque, Bro !!?? Dyin' to get it !!

[Mark Weber]

im not even trash talking in this thread lol. i discuss baseball. you are the one that feels a need to bash the Redsox and think is some sort of battle.

you can call me names like a "crazed homer" all you want. am i suppose to be offended by that? i love the Redsox. I support my team. Big deal. I am far from a crazed homer though. I dont think everything the Redsox have done or currently do is great. but i still love my team.

not all of us can sit back from across the country and pick our teams. i was born a Redsox fan.

so you can sit at your desk in Arizona and bash me for being a Redsox fan. You can sit there and bash the Redsox with stuff that doesnt matter.

You are impressing noone and you certainly are not "beating" anyone.

Im just here to discuss baseball and the rivalry. i have given the Yankees props and i dont sit here and scream "Yankees Suck" like you say i do.

Let me get this straight - you don't understand why I feel the need to bash the Red Sox on the "OFFICIAL Yankees vs. Red Sox trash talking thread"??

I was born in New York Tiger, a fact you and robertbee seem to consistently forget. My family moved to the middle of Oregon when I was four years old. The closest thing to a "local" baseball team I had growing up were the Seattle Mariners (six hours North) and the Oakland A's and San Francisco Giants (eight hours South). For reference, I was as close to baseball as you were to Washington DC. When I got interested in sports in 1984, with no local teams to follow, I decided to be loyal to teams from my home state. I chose the Yankees, Knicks and Rangers to pull for - but stayed true to my bandwagon allegiance to the Pittsburgh Steelers from way back. I'm not sure why my decision to pull for the Yankees from Oregon deserves less credit than you being born into your Boston allegiance, but maybe you can explain why you seem to feel that way.

If you don't want to have arguments with me on this designated thread, I'd suggest you stop trying to refute or belittle my points if you don't have anything tangible to offer as a counterpoint. I'm happy to have a back-and-forth baseball discussion (like I do with orionquest), but you'd better bring some ammo to work with.

[fenwayp]

Gammons stricken, undergoes surgery
By Bob Ryan, Globe Staff | June 27, 2006

ESPN baseball analyst Peter Gammons, 61, is undergoing surgery this afternoon for an aneurysm in his brain.

Gammons was stricken earlier today and was taken to a Boston-area hospital. He is expected to be in intensive care for the next 10 to 12 days.

Gammons and the Globe were the trailblazers of the baseball notes format in the 1970s. From that time until 2000, save for a few interruptions in the 1980s, Gammons's unique take on baseball was a mainstay of the Sunday Globe's sports section.

Gammons was honored as the recipient of the 2004 J.G. Taylor Spink Award for outstanding baseball writing during the 2005 Hall of Fame induction ceremony July 31 in Cooperstown, N.Y. He was selected in balloting by the Baseball Writers Association of America.

He began his career as a reporter for the Boston Globe in 1969 and wrote a very popular weekly Sunday baseball column for many years. He has also worked for Sports Illustrated covering the National Hockey League, college basketball and Major League Baseball (1976-78, 1986-90).

In 1986, upon his return to Sports Illustrated as a senior writer following a second stay at the Globe, he wrote numerous stories covering some of baseball's most important news events, as well as authoring "Inside Baseball,” Sports Illustrated's weekly baseball notebook.

Born April 9, 1945, Gammons is a native of Boston, raised in nearby Groton, Mass. He attended the University of North Carolina and is married.

[fenwayp]

Cano goes on the DL...

[orionquest]

LOL...Mark, where is my Bruins Bourque, Bro !!?? Dyin' to get it !!

Hey... are Bruins Bourques being handed out? For love of all that is good, sweet and holy, please, please hook me up!!!!

[BlakChamber]

^^^
He won the playoff contest. There's no free Bruins Borque handout, sadly :(

[orionquest]

Gammons stricken, undergoes surgery
By Bob Ryan, Globe Staff | June 27, 2006

ESPN baseball analyst Peter Gammons, 61, is undergoing surgery this afternoon for an aneurysm in his brain.

My thoughts and prayers are with him and his family. Get well, Peter!

[ToightLikeATiger]

Let me get this straight - you don't understand why I feel the need to bash the Red Sox on the "OFFICIAL Yankees vs. Red Sox trash talking thread"??

I was born in New York Tiger, a fact you and robertbee seem to consistently forget. My family moved to the middle of Oregon when I was four years old. The closest thing to a "local" baseball team I had growing up were the Seattle Mariners (six hours North) and the Oakland A's and San Francisco Giants (eight hours South). For reference, I was as close to baseball as you were to Washington DC. When I got interested in sports in 1984, with no local teams to follow, I decided to be loyal to teams from my home state. I chose the Yankees, Knicks and Rangers to pull for - but stayed true to my bandwagon allegiance to the Pittsburgh Steelers from way back. I'm not sure why my decision to pull for the Yankees from Oregon deserves less credit than you being born into your Boston allegiance, but maybe you can explain why you seem to feel that way.

If you don't want to have arguments with me on this designated thread, I'd suggest you stop trying to refute or belittle my points if you don't have anything tangible to offer as a counterpoint. I'm happy to have a back-and-forth baseball discussion (like I do with orionquest), but you'd better bring someammo to work with.

the problem with you Mark is you think you are perfect. you think everything you say is 100% right and there is no disputing it.

you do the same thing with TMP. You think the company has never done a thing wrong.

i cant have discussions with a person like that.

i have come on here to try to discuss things with you mark and all you do is tell me im wrong, ignore the fact i tried to have a conversation and then proceed to say you beat me.