OFFICIAL Yankees vs. Red Sox trash talking thread

[fenwayp]

Good to see the Red Sox POUND the toast of the NL into submission tonight, coupled with the lameass Yankees not being able to muster anything against the worst Braves team to take the field in 15 years...LOL...

THE YANKEES REALLY DO SUCK :D

[fenwayp]

Not only have the Red Sox won 10 straight games now, but they completed their 14th consecutive game without an error, the longest streak in the majors this season. The AL record is 15. ...

[whoh8sbacon]

the problem with you Mark is you think you are perfect. you think everything you say is 100% right and there is no disputing it.

you do the same thing with TMP. You think the company has never done a thing wrong.


Actually, I think Mark is the first person to admit it when he or TMP is wrong as I've seen a few times where he's had to own up for himself or the company when they've made mistakes, with no excuses.

As an off the top of my head example, Mark took ownership of the oversight on the pants of the Lightning hockey players, not having lightning bolts down the sides of their pants. He could have saved face and put the blame on the factory overseas, and how would we have known any different. But he admitted that it was his oversight when approving the figures that didn't catch the error.

[fenwayp]

*tumbleweed blows by*

[whoh8sbacon]

http://www.tumbleweeds.com/images/tumble.gif

[robertbee]

Kinda like Boston letting Fisk walk because someone's relative was a catcher in Boston's minor league system. Or letting Boggs walk after his first sub-.300 season
EVER.

[QUOTE]Mattingly hurt his back in 1989 as I remember, and New York kept him as their first baseman for six more seasons - choosing to replace his fading power at other positions rather than replace him outright. Mattingly continued to be a good hitter, a brilliant fielder, and one of the finest players (and captains) in Yankee history. It's not like Tony Conigliaro, who recovered from his brutal beaning to win comeback player of the year and then have Boston ship him to the team that beaned him in the first place. Or Hall-of-Fame OF Harry Hooper, who returned from a year of military service during World War I to sign a contract that made him a "lifetime Red Sock" only to have Boston trade him to Chicago DAYS later...

Stop making pro-Yankee points bee, it hurts your own cause


The reason they "kept" him was because the Yankees were a joke and when your team sucks that bad . Mattinglywas a draw for the Yankee faithful. All 8,000 of them in the 80's . Because he played for the Yankees there was an auroa. If he was playing for the Braves or Brewers he would just be another player. Mattingly will have to settle for induction only into the Mustache Hall of Fame or double for Burt Reynolds
:p


So Mista Weber do you think Donnie boy deserves to be a hall of famer?

[robertbee]

came across this interesting article. racism and 2 of your favorite players Mark.

Any insight? Do you prefer Mattingly over Henderson? Who did you want to see win the batting title Winfield of Mattingly?


Yesterday, John Perricone at Only

by Al Dente
Yesterday, John Perricone at Only Baseball Matters (http://onlybaseballmatters.com/) conveyed his dismay concerning the treatment Barry Bonds has recieved from both the media and the public over the years. While I think Bonds has not helped himself as far as his image is concerned, a lot of the criticism he has drawn suggests racism’s pervasivness is alive and well. What particularly caught my attention was his analogy to Don Mattingly, a local favorite (who many argue is overrated); one the great players of the Larry Bird 80’s. It struck me as poignant because Mattingly enjoyed his greatest years with a player who is more than a little bit like Bonds in Rickey Henderson.


Henderson didn’t last much longer in New York than Reggie Jackson did( A quick rest stop); he didn’t make the same kind of impact, though he was a better all-around player. Mattingly, of course was the most popular Yankee since Mickey Mantle. I can only imagine the bemusement a young baseball fan will be greeted with 30 years down the road when he looks at the books to compare Mattingly with Henderson. “How is Mattingly even in the discussion?” he might say. But those of us (mostly white) old-timers who grew up in New York during the 80’s will most likely stick to our guns, arguing that Donnie Baseball had more “heart” and “grit” and all those other wonderful intagibles, than Rickey Henderson ever dreamed of possessing. Numbers are overrated we may say. But the real issue is how deep our perceptions run.
The issue of perception and racial stereotypes is thorny and complicated, and I don’t pretend to be an expert. But it’s clear to me that a black player like Henderson didn’t recieve the kind of praise or adulation that seemingly fell into Mattingly’s lap. I don’t mean to suggest that Mattingly was a phony, or that he didn’t deserve the attention. But how many Yankee fans or members of the press for that matter, pulled for the young Mattingly over Dave Winfield in 1984 when they battled it out for the batting title simply because he was white?
It should come as no suprise then that Henderson also runs a close second to Bonds as the most under-appreciated great player of his time.
Last night I did some rummaging around in my baseball library and pulled out “Wait Till Next Year”, a book about the 1987 sporting scene in New York written by columnist Mike Lupica and screenwriter William Goldman. (Bantam Books, 1988.) This portion, written by Lupica, may be of interest, John:

‘In New York, it has been historically more useful to be a white star than a black star; the opportunities for endorsements and commercials and billboards and all the rest that comes with being a celeb are more readily available to you. With the Mets, Gary Carter and Ron Darling were infinitely more appealing to Madison Avenue than Darryl Strawberry and Dwight Gooden, even before Gooden’s difficulty getting the passing grade on the urine test.
This sort of racism is not specific to New York, or baseball; it is part of professional sports now. [Wasn’t it always?] There was just more conversation about it around the Yankees in early 1987 because [Rickey] Henderson was having such an electrifying start, the Yankees were in first place, the Mets were in trouble, and Henderson still wasn’t the toast of the town. A lot of people thought it was a combination of the normal racism of sports, and perception—-the way players were presented to the world in the newspapers. Henderson had the image of being ****y. Lenny Dykstra, the white center fielder for the Mets, strutted and swaggered just as much at Shea Stadium as Henderson did at Yankee Stadium. But Dykstra, who had traded mightily on the Mets’ World Series championship during the off-season, had a reputation as being tough.
Henderson was a hot dog.
Dykstra was his nickname: “Nails.”
It was a subtle distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.
Henderson, the black man, was ****y.
Dykstra, the white man, was tough.
Henderson had an image problem. Dykstra didn’t. That day at Yankee Stadium, the crowd at kept cheering after Mattingly’s grand slam, wanting Mattingly to come out and take a curtain call. Mattingly, a shy man who thinks curtain calls are silly displays, didn’t want to go. Henderson, laughing, ran up the dugout steps, waved, got Mattingly’s cheer.
In the clubhouse, Willie Randolph said, “It’s the only way Rickey can get one.”
And there was more than racism going on.’

Here is where Henderson bears an even stronger resemblance to Bonds:

‘Henderson simply refused to sell himself to the writers; he simply was not one of the kings of clubhouse schmooze. He would not, or could not, make himself available to writers before games. Rickey had his own way of doing things, and his reluctance to promote himself in any way just seemed to fit into the tapestry of being Rickey. He was a game player. He did not enjoy the running and drills of spring training; did not like rules of any kind; he would hide in a corner of the dugout in Fort Lauderdale when the Yankees ran laps early in spring training, then jump out when [then manager, Lou] Pinella and the coaches weren’t looking, join his mates for the final lap. He did not like getting to the ball park any earlier than he had to; it was obvious to teammates and writers covering the team that he had terrible work habits. The slightest injury sent him to the bench; it was a problem that would become more and more acute for Henderson, and his team, and his image, and Yankee fans. [The irony for Henderson, is that he ended up with the career record for stolen bases and runs scored, but never shed the image as a player who loafed it.]
And there was “Don’t need no press now, man.”
The writers had never forgotten those first words Henderson spoke in the Yankee clubhouse, in April of 1985. Henderson had injured an ankle in Florida, had needed extra time to recuperate, and the regular season had started without him. When he did show up, the writers were waiting for him.
Henderson shooed them away from his locker, saying, “Don’t need no press now, man.”
He hadn’t gotten a lot of press since…
One day a writer said to Dave Winfield, “Why isn’t Rickey bigger around here than he is?”
And Winfield, voice dripping with sarcasm, said, “You mean like I am?”
Claudell Washington was more vocal and belligerent about the issue, especially at the end of May , when Dennis Rodman and Isiah Thomas of the Detroit Pistons would create a national sensation with some remarks about Larry Bird, and the fact that he might not be as big a star as he was if he wasn’t white. Thomas, when given the chance to explain himself by columnist Ira Berkow in the Times, said, “Magic (Johnson) and Michael Jordan and me, we’re playing on God-given talent, like we’re animals, lions and tigers who run wild in the jungle, while Larry’s success is due to intelligence and hard work.”…
Washington: “You think Rickey Henderson doesn’t understand what we’re talking about with this whole black-white deal? You think he doesn’t know? That man Rickey is a legend. He should be on every billboard in town, on every commercial. Rickey Henderson is the best.’ (pp.181-83)
I don’t think Don Mattingly was any less sincere in his approach to the game and his talents than Henderson was to his, it’s just that Mattingly was the personification of what Curt Flood once labled as “that paragon of nineteenth-century Integrity—-the Hungry Ball Player.” To be a bit more disparaging, I should say, “The Hungry White Ball Player”. The humble, over-achiever. Flood added, “To acquire a public reputation as a ‘hustler’—-a good competitor—-is usually a matter of posture or personality…Slowness of foot also helps, requiring the player to fling himself to the turf in vain efforts to catch balls that more gifted athletes might have handled while remaining unruffled and erect.” (From “The Way It Is” by Flood with Richard Carter. Trident Press, 1971. pp.51 + 59.) Reading Flood’s observation I couldn’t help but think how nicely it applied to David Eckstein and Garret Anderson this post season. Which player recieved more press, what kind of press what it, and who is truly the better player?
Cynicism aside, Mattingly was a grinder of the highest order, one who led by example. One of the reasons for his popularity was certainly his race; it is why Mattingly was lauded for his dedication, and perspiration, while Winfield was derided as a disapointment at best, and at worst, a choke artist.
The truth is Mattingly was praised for developing skills which overcame his lesser natural talent, while Bonds and Henderson were scorned for neglecting their superior skills and natural gifts. Or at least taking them for granted. Mattingly was the thinking man’s player; Rickey and Bonds are showboats. I think the fact that Bonds was a rich kid, not to mention a black one, didn’t help endear any of the great white public to him either. And John is correct, Bonds has never played the “Golly gee” card, or even the “Baseball been berry, berry good to me” one that Sammy Sosa has shrewdly employed so succesfully.
Where Bonds loses me is when he complains about not being liked as much as Jordan, Russell, Jabbar and Gretsky. Or respected. The two words are very different to me. If you want to be liked, you have to be a likable guy, or go out of your way to create a likable persona. Barry has always had a say in this, no matter what scars he accrued watching the media’s treatment of his father as a kid. Bonds has made a choice, and he’s had to live with the consequences. He’s chosen to be true to himself, and that has apparently precluded him from using the media to his advantage. His grudges, real or imagined are too great to overcome.
But I don’t think Bonds really cares about being liked. I sure don’t know how well liked Kareem was during his heyday. Respect, that’s another story. It’s seems to me that
Bonds is as respected as a player can be, between the lines. If not by the media and the public than at least by his peers. Feared is another word that comes to mind. But it is true that he isn’t admired, or revered in a way that say, Cal Ripken is. Race certainly has something to do with this. I don’t want to take Bonds off the hook totally, because he’s accountable as well, but Bonds was never interested in selling himself to White America like Michael Jordan has.
I never thought of comparing Bonds and Mattingly, but it’s interesting to think about, simply from a practical approach. They had such different styles. They were such different hitters. I found a good bit from Tom Boswell in his book “Heart of the Order” (Penguin, 1989) that pertains to this difference:
‘For historical reference, the Musial analogy works [with Mattingly]. Left-handed hitter. Eccentric closed and coiled stance. Sprays the ball. Tons of doubles. Not too many walks. Hard to strike out.
“He doesn’t look like Musial, but he hits like him,” says Orioles manager Earl Weaver. “Musial was the best at adjusting once the ball left the pitcher’s hand. He’d hit the pitcher’s pitch. Williams was the best at making them throw his pitch. He didn’t believe in adjusting. If it wasn’t what he wanted, he knew enough to walk to first base. That’s why he hit .406.
Once every coupla games, a Musial or Mattingly is going to adjust and put that tough pitch in play instead of walking and you’re going to get some extra outs. But he’s also going to drive you crazy by popping a perfect fastball on the fists down the left-field line for a double.” (p.68)
You could say the same thing about our Vlad Guerrero today.
Here is one last bit, again from Curt Flood, who once approached Mr. Wunnerful for some hitting advice.
‘Stan Musial also helped—-mainly by working as hard as he did on his own perfect swing. If this immortal felt the need for frequent extra practice, how could I hope to prosper on less effort? He was an awesome sight in the batting cage, sweat pouring, brows knit in concentration, telling the pitcher what to throw next, hammering twenty or thirty balls to the fences and beyond—-polishing, polishing, polishing.
I once plucked at his sleeve for advice. I had become overanxious about the curve ball and was swinging at it too soon. When balls are being fired toward your head at ninety or a hundred miles an house, there is no time for deliberation. I mean, you do not just decide to delay your bat in case the pitch turns out to be a curve. Proper timing is an end product of a properly balanced stance, a properly hinged swing and, of course, athletic reflexes. I asked Musial if he could tell me how to adjust my swing. He thought about it for a while and then confided with total sincerity, “Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the **** out of it.” I might as well have asked a nightingale how to trill.” (pp.63-4)
Vlad G of course takes it to another level. He doesn’t concern himself with balls and strikes. I’m not sure what game he’s playing inside his own head, but he sure does know how to knock the **** of the ball

[robertbee]

In New York, it has been historically more useful to be a white star than a black star; the opportunities for endorsements and commercials and billboards and all the rest that comes with being a celeb are more readily available to you. With the Mets, Gary Carter and Ron Darling were infinitely more appealing to Madison Avenue than Darryl Strawberry and Dwight Gooden, even before Gooden’s difficulty getting the passing grade on the urine test.

:spawnorb:

[BurningSoul]

Wow, that guy did a pretty poor job of presenting his case of racism in New York. Maybe Yankee fans loved Mattingly more than Winfield and Henderson because he was home grown talent and a better player than both at the time? Lots of people were looking for the next great true Yankee and thought they had it in young Mattingly. Maybe that could be why they showed favoritism towards him. Henderson being an *** to media = bad press. Not too many people are fans of players with bad press. Why were most Yankee fans pulling for Mantle instead of Maris to win the HR title?

[Vinnie4]

That's bee, just begging for attention.

[whoh8sbacon]

The reason they "kept" him was because the Yankees were a joke and when your team sucks that bad . Mattinglywas a draw for the Yankee faithful. All 8,000 of them in the 80's.

Not a fan of either team, but the lowest attendance figures I can see for the Yankees for any year in the 80's was 22,500 per game. That was in 1984, which was 6th place in attendance out of the 14 AL teams that season.

The Red Sox averaged fewer than 22,500 patrons per game in four different seasons during the 80's.

[Vinnie4]

As stated several times in this thread, most Sox fans view Yankee fans as pompous and arrogant. But speaking from personal experience, Sox fans(especially around here) are viewed as loud, brash, and obnoxious. During the 1996-2000 Yankee run, all I heard from Sox fans was how the Yankees sucked. After the initial sting of 2004, I was happy for Sox fans, finally coming through for a championship. But that didn't last long, because of the way Red Sox fans in my area handled themselves. During the Yankee championships fans were happy. After Boston won, fans were burning stuff in the streets. 6 college students were brought up on charges of destroying a lamp post, an act which was caught on tape. The judge dismissed the case because the youths were just overjoyed at the fact of a local team winning a championship after all this time. The charges were dropped. And ever since 2004, Boston fans can also add pompous and arrogant to that list. It took Yankee fans 26 championships to get there, but only 1 for Red Sox fans. Granted, all this is just in my area, and not example of how all boston fans act. But it has tainted my opinion of our greatest rival. Orionquest handles himself with much grace and dignity, and is the type of fan I could sit and watch a game with, and enjoy it no matter the outcome. But there are several Boston fans on this thread that seem to lean more toward the Sox fans I spoke of earlier.

[Mark Weber]

the problem with you Mark is you think you are perfect. you think everything you say is 100% right and there is no disputing it.

you do the same thing with TMP. You think the company has never done a thing wrong.

i cant have discussions with a person like that.

i have come on here to try to discuss things with you mark and all you do is tell me im wrong, ignore the fact i tried to have a conversation and then proceed to say you beat me.

I'm sorry that's the opinion you have of me Tiger. There are points and stances that I strongly believe in and won't be easily dissuaded from - that's never going to change, but it doesn't mean I can't discuss them intelligently with people who disagree with them.

I think McFarlane Toys produces brilliant product for very resasonable prices, but I don't agree with everything the company does. I've fought and lost many a war about sports Picks internally. I wouldn't have released the Lamar Odom figure, and I never would have head-swapped Elton Brand onto Vince Carter's body (that was before my time here though). I don't defend things I dont personally believe in, but if you expect to see me airing dirty laundry about the company on the message board they pay me to moderate you're delusional.

I'm happy to argue point with you on anything we might disagree on Tiger - but you'll need some points I hadn't considered or some key facts to change my mind.

[Mark Weber]

The reason they "kept" him was because the Yankees were a joke and when your team sucks that bad . Mattinglywas a draw for the Yankee faithful. All 8,000 of them in the 80's . Because he played for the Yankees there was an auroa. If he was playing for the Braves or Brewers he would just be another player. Mattingly will have to settle for induction only into the Mustache Hall of Fame or double for Burt ReynoldsSo Mista Weber do you think Donnie boy deserves to be a hall of famer?

Creative dodge on the Fisk/Hooper/Conigliaro comparison bee, you're really good at running.

I don't think Mattingly is a Hall-of-Famer - his numbers fall just short. The only way I could see him getting into Cooperstown is if he has a long and successful managerial career on top of his strong (but not quite HOF) playing days. Here's a good comparison: I wouldn't have voted Joe Torre into the Hall based on his playing career, but add in his time (and four titles) managing the Yankees and I think he's a viable candidate.

To return serve to bee, what do you think of how Boston got rid of Carlton Fisk, Harry Hooper and Tony Conigliaro?

[Mark Weber]

came across this interesting article. racism and 2 of your favorite players Mark.

Any insight? Do you prefer Mattingly over Henderson? Who did you want to see win the batting title Winfield of Mattingly?

Well you stepped in it here bee, as I've always relayed to the board that my two all-time favorite baseball players are Lou Gehrig and Rickey Henderson. I can see why Mattingly was more popular than Henderson in New York, as Mattingly was a homegrown star and while Rickey ended up having a far superior career, the years he spent with the Yankees (1984-1988 before being traded in 1989) were Mattingly's absolute heyday, before his back injury sapped his power numbers.

[BlakChamber]

To return serve to bee, what do you think of how Boston got rid of Carlton Fisk, Harry Hooper and Tony Conigliaro?
If I may take a stab at Mr. Bee's response, I predict it will have to do with johnny cakes, 1918, 2004, I reminder to stop living in the past, and something about Big Papi ;)

[whoh8sbacon]

I predict it will have to do with johnny cakes

Vito's boyfriend on The Sopranos? ;)

[Vinnie4]

If I may take a stab at Mr. Bee's response, I predict it will have to do with johnny cakes, 1918, 2004, I reminder to stop living in the past, and something about Big Papi ;)
You must be psychic.:eek:

[Vinnie4]

Hey bee, how did you like that shot in the 12th by A-Rod to give the Yankees a 4-3 victory?

[spyxops]

Hey bee, how did you like that shot in the 12th by A-Rod to give the Yankees a 4-3 victory?
hahaha yo that was great man :D i love it ::)

[Arodjr]

Arod, clutch homer in the 12th!!! Wicked shot!!!

[robertbee]

To return serve to bee, what do you think of how Boston got rid of Carlton Fisk, Harry Hooper and Tony Conigliaro?

What do I think? It sucked. I emulated Fisk as a child. I was angry. Didn't understand it at that age. Why did he leave? Same thing with Lynn. Use to throw the ball up in the air and make a diving catch pretending to be Lynn. I am not responsible for them leaving. Its the management of past years who have failed us numourous times. But you just can't throw your hat away and pick up another because of that as did a fellow boardie who dawned a Yankee hat after being a Sox fan for years. Once a Red Sox always a Red Sox I say. They come in the front door and may leave out the back door but the front door will always be open for them to some extent. Willfrado Cadero wsa run out of town because he beat his wife. Door closed. Other than that. Fisk a native New Englander will always have a special place in out hearts as will Lynn, Tony C a Massachusetts native. just becaue they left, got traded, they are still part of us the fans who have cheered them thru good times, bad times. being a Sox fan you learn heartache and joy. Its a good lesson to learn in sports and in life. It makes you strong and builds character. I wouldnt want it any other way.



I saw her there from afar
Her hair grey charcoal
Takes a drag from her tar
I kissed her a smile
But her blood red shot eye
Said the son never shines on closed doors

It's been eight long years since I saw
The woman who's labored
Since the day I was born
These wrinkles now face
To that cold dark damp place
Where the son never shines on closed doors

She said the son never shines on closed doors
I open to find only hurricanes blow
Take me away back to the green fields of May
Because the son never shines on closed doors

Death comes like a thief in the night
To steal while you sleep
The soul's flickering light
Well maybe it's then
She said, I'll see you again
Because the son never shines on closed doors

She said the son never shines on closed doors
I open to find only hurricanes blow
Take me away back to the green fields of May
Because the son never shines on closed doors

And we all go the same way home
Yeah we all go the same way home

[robertbee]

Hey bee, how did you like that shot in the 12th by A-Rod to give the Yankees a 4-3 victory?



Didn't see it I was at the Sox game. Had a blast. Pedro was back. Good time. Arod finally won a game? So now is he considered a Yankee? Or do they still boo him?
Good for Mr 250 Million. He's starting to earn his money.

[robertbee]

Vito's boyfriend on The Sopranos? ;)

Bingo!

http://www.hbo.com/sopranos/img/episode/season06/ep73/ep73_01.jpg

Vito has his usual - Johnny Cakes - at Jim's diner, complimenting his heroism at the fire. Jim asks how the writing is going on his book.

[robertbee]

Need Someone to Cheer?
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/BDD_4.11_jb_ap.jpg
(AP Photo)
In Case You Forget, Beckett's Pitching Tonight
Josh Goes for 10th Win, Sox Turn It Up to 11

[Mark Weber]

I'm not that familiar with the Sopranos. Is the "Johnny Cakes" reference a veiled homosexual accusation at another board member?

[Mark Weber]

Need Someone to Cheer?
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/BDD_4.11_jb_ap.jpg
(AP Photo)
In Case You Forget, Beckett's Pitching Tonight
Josh Goes for 10th Win, Sox Turn It Up to 11


Which player is Beckett hurling obscenities at in this picture?

[LI-Mike]

I'm not that familiar with the Sopranos. Is the "Johnny Cakes" reference a veiled homosexual accusation at another board member?

Yea it does mark...

[Mark Weber]

Then let's make sure it doesn't happen again. Got it bee?

[robertbee]

I'm not that familiar with the Sopranos. Is the "Johnny Cakes" reference a veiled homosexual accusation at another board member?



Far from it. Its pancakes.


Johnnycakes, johnny cakes, jonnycake, ashcake, battercake, corn cake, cornpone, hoecake, hoe cake, journey cake, mush bread, pone, Shawnee cake, jonakin, and jonikin. These are all regional names for cornmeal flatbread. The name, exact type of batter and cooking method varies from region to region. They may be cooked over the ashes of a campfire, on hot stones, on a griddle, in a cast iron pan, or in the oven. Source (http://www.foodreference.com/html/fjohnnycake.html)

[ToightLikeATiger]

lol Mark.... just looking for a way to get rid of Robertbee eh? i guess in Arizona you dont know much about breakfast items?

johnny cakes with maple syrup.

its more of a Vermont reference.

[Vinnie4]

lol Mark.... just looking for a way to get rid of Robertbee eh? i guess in Arizona you dont know much about breakfast items?

johnny cakes with maple syrup.

its more of a Vermont reference.
If that was just the case, I'd agree. But when he's called me Vito as well......come on Toight. It's pretty obvious.

[Vinnie4]

Didn't see it I was at the Sox game. Had a blast. Pedro was back. Good time. Arod finally won a game? So now is he considered a Yankee? Or do they still boo him?
Good for Mr 250 Million. He's starting to earn his money.
You seem very well versed when it comes to the Yankee losses, but you never seem to see the Yankee wins. Hmmmmmmmmmm

[BuccaneerPride55]

Both teams won't make the playoffs if the Tigers & White Sox keep their play up.

[whoh8sbacon]

Vince I think you have been eatting to many Johnny Cakes.....please....If you would rather have Arod over Papi then so be it. Do a poll and 90% of the people will take Papi. Arod has a history of choking when it counts, has a history of being selfish and is just a bad teamamte. Ortiz is a great blub house guy and makes baseball fun. G-ayrod is to serious, and has ruined every team he has been on. The best bet for the Yankees is to trade him for some young pitching which they desprately need and eat half his contract. Otherwise the Yankees will never win this century. Arod is cancer and must be nipped before it become terminal. I will make sure to see if Big papi can maybe cure Arods cancer spreading ways with some hoodoo since Papi is from the Dominicain. I wish you well Vince2cents

I didnt see the game. I am working night. I only dvr the Sox game. So how was he? Clean shaved? Was his uniform tight? Did he smile? What did you find about him that looked good or pretty. maybe he will head up north next time he's in town and you can share some Johnny Cakes. Good day. All

I can see why you prefer the National league. They all eat Johnny Cakes over there

Jeter eats Johnny Cakes as well. Maybe you and Mark can get togetter and have a stats party since you guys love stats so much. Coffee and Johnny Cakes and stats. Kind of like a Yankee Tea party. Bust out all your Yankee sportspicks and sit around in your Yankee boxers and Yankee wife beters and maybe if your both crazy you can put on some white hoods and talk about the good ole days of the Red Sox. And on closing this topic I just want to say the the Yankees Suck.


I am sure you know all the rest stops in Vermont. How are the Johnny Cakes Vincent... do you like them with hot maple syrup. Thats so sweet.

How anyone can say that Roberbee isn't using the Johnny Cakes reference to imply a boardmember's, a player's, or the National League's homosexuality, is ridiculous.

In the Sopranos this season Vito is outed and goes into hiding in a quaint town in Vermont. He adopts the alias Vincent, pretends to be a writer, and finds love with a volunteer firefighter named Jim who works in a diner and makes wicked "Johnny cakes" style pancakes. As their relationship blossoms "Johnny Cakes" becomes Vito's pet name for Jim.

With Robertbee smugly smiling throughout the thread beside his posts, saying that Jeter eats Johnny Cakes, and calling Vinnie4 "Vito4", etc.. etc.. I think his intent is quite clear.

Robertbee's denial is absurd and Toight you look quite foolish sticking up for him on the issue.

Glad to reveal the mystery of the "Johnny Cakes" to all who didn't get it. You people need some HBO. :)

[Tanner2126]

Both teams won't make the playoffs if the Tigers & White Sox keep their play up.

Good point!! Because we know theres no division winner in the east this year. :rolleyes:

[BlakChamber]

How anyone can say that Roberbee isn't using the Johnny Cakes reference to imply a boardmembers homosexuality, is ridiculous.

In the Sopranos this season Vito is outed and goes into hiding in a quaint town in Vermont. He adopts the alias Vincent, pretends to be a writer, and finds love with a volunteer firefighter named Jim who works in a diner and makes wicked "Johnny cakes" style pancakes. As their relationship blossoms "Johnny Cakes" becomes Vito's pet name for Jim.

With Robertbee smugly smiling throughout the thread beside his posts, saying that Jeter eats Johnny Cakes, and calling Vinnie4 "Vito4", etc.. etc.. I think his intent is quite clear.

Robertbee's denial is absurd and Toight you look quite foolish sticking up for him on the issue.

Glad to reveal the mystery of the "Johnny Cakes" to all who didn't get it. You people need some HBO. :)
Toight looking foolish? No way!!!

[BlakChamber]

Good point!! Because we know theres no division winner in the east this year. :rolleyes:
He's saying only one of the teams, Yankees or Red Sox, will make the playoffs because the wildcard is going to come from the Central.

[Sbells]

Is it wrong to say someone is a homosexual?

[Stephanie14]

I think its sad that some people have to stoop so low. I guess thats what extremely ignorant people do when they can't come up with an intelligent response.

[BurningSoul]

He's saying only one of the teams, Yankees or Red Sox, will make the playoffs because the wildcard is going to come from the Central.

Or that the Blue Jays will win the east.

[BlakChamber]

Or that the Blue Jays will win the east.
Jays win the east, Tigs and White Sox take central and wild card. Boston and NY sit at home come October. What I wouldn't give to see that...

[ToightLikeATiger]

Robertbee's denial is absurd and Toight you look quite foolish sticking up for him on the issue.

well before you try to insult me please have a clue what you are talking about. I have never once watched an episode of the Soprano's. So i have no clue what you are talking about.

I know the term "Johnny Cakes" as being a term for Pancakes with us Northerners. Im from New Hampshire so there are restaurants that have Johnny Cakes on the menu.

Since Vinnie (although i have him on ignore i can see by robertbees posts he is talking to him) is from Vermont i thought Robertbee was making fun of him for being from Vermont. Since its a term used there as well.

i dont know if Robertbee is using it in the insult Vermont way or the other way you bring up. Im just giving robertbee the benefit of the doubt cause i have never seen him use hateful terms on the board

[whoh8sbacon]

Is it wrong to say someone is a homosexual?

Ask Ozzie Guillen once he comes out of sensitivity training. ;)

[whoh8sbacon]

i dont know if Robertbee is using it in the insult Vermont way or the other way you bring up.

So, if he's using the insult in the way you suggest, then Robertbee is just saying that the National League players are "from Vermont", and then him changing Vinnie's boardname to "Vito" in a quote reply is just a coincidence? Seems reasonable. :rolleyes:

Saying that he's sure that Vinnie knows where all the rest stops are in Vermont (rest stops are stereotypically places where homosexual men hook up), there's some innocent explanation for that comment too, right?

[whoh8sbacon]

well before you try to insult me please have a clue what you are talking about. I have never once watched an episode of the Soprano's. So i have no clue what you are talking about.

Got it. I'm clued in that you have no clue now. ;)

[ToightLikeATiger]

welcome to my ignore list bacon.... im not gonna argue with you over something as stupid as this. you obviously didnt read a thing i said and you just reply with more stuff trying to question me.

i dont read all of robertbees posts btw so i dont know everything he says. i made my comment from what i had seen. once again is obvious you just dont care what i said you just wanted to argue.

you will have to find someone else to have a slapfight with.

[whoh8sbacon]

Suit yourself.

I read everything you said. I can't say the same for you regarding my posts though, because I collected all of Bee's Johnny Cakes posts there for you to review. In my opinion, your conclusion isn't reasonable, so I don't see how you could have read it.

Enjoy your ignore list, or is it the ignorance list? ;)

Shoot, gotta go look for a new slapfight partner now. :(

[Vinnie4]

welcome to my ignore list bacon.... im not gonna argue with you over something as stupid as this. you obviously didnt read a thing i said and you just reply with more stuff trying to question me.

i dont read all of robertbees posts btw so i dont know everything he says. i made my comment from what i had seen. once again is obvious you just dont care what i said you just wanted to argue.

you will have to find someone else to have a slapfight with.
Confuscious say, "better to keep your mouth closed and let everyone assume you are ignorant, than to open it and remove all doubt."

[Vinnie4]

How anyone can say that Roberbee isn't using the Johnny Cakes reference to imply a boardmember's, a player's, or the National League's homosexuality, is ridiculous.

In the Sopranos this season Vito is outed and goes into hiding in a quaint town in Vermont. He adopts the alias Vincent, pretends to be a writer, and finds love with a volunteer firefighter named Jim who works in a diner and makes wicked "Johnny cakes" style pancakes. As their relationship blossoms "Johnny Cakes" becomes Vito's pet name for Jim.

With Robertbee smugly smiling throughout the thread beside his posts, saying that Jeter eats Johnny Cakes, and calling Vinnie4 "Vito4", etc.. etc.. I think his intent is quite clear.

Robertbee's denial is absurd and Toight you look quite foolish sticking up for him on the issue.

Glad to reveal the mystery of the "Johnny Cakes" to all who didn't get it. You people need some HBO. :)
Thanks for revealing the mystery. I had my assumptions, but I'm glad you cleared it up. Guess I better tune into HBO more often.:D

[Sbells]

welcome to my ignore list bacon.... im not gonna argue with you over something as stupid as this. you obviously didnt read a thing i said and you just reply with more stuff trying to question me.

i dont read all of robertbees posts btw so i dont know everything he says. i made my comment from what i had seen. once again is obvious you just dont care what i said you just wanted to argue.

you will have to find someone else to have a slapfight with.

God forbid us mortals question you.

[robertbee]

You seem very well versed when it comes to the Yankee losses, but you never seem to see the Yankee wins. Hmmmmmmmmmm

I prefer loses. HELLO. I am a Red Sox fan. IT gives me great pleasure to see them lose. Route for the Sox to win Yankees lose. How about those Red hot Red Sox. :cool: Defense baby defense. Good pitching. And the bats are alive! Its was only a matter of time.

What are the Yankees hitting in June? 200. not bad for one of the greatest line up of all time. :rolleyes:

[Mavrik28]

How can spelling bee get away with the Vito and Johnny Cakes references? Spellingbee is clearly calling Vinnie a homosexual. Sure he tries to be witty and disguise it using TV show references, but that doesn't make it right. Mark that has to violate the conduct policy and we know spelling bee has violated that more then once. Just pull the plug on him already. Get him out of here.

[Mavrik28]

I prefer loses. HELLO. I am a Red Sox fan. IT gives me great pleasure to see them lose. Route for the Sox to win Yankees lose. How about those Red hot Red Sox. :cool: Defense baby defense. Good pitching. And the bats are alive! Its was only a matter of time.

What are the Yankees hitting in June? 200. not bad for one of the greatest line up of all time. :rolleyes:

Route: A road, course, or way for travel from one place to another.

The word you are looking for is ROOT.

It is used in the classic baseball song, Take Me Out To The Ballgame.

[Mark Weber]

lol Mark.... just looking for a way to get rid of Robertbee eh? i guess in Arizona you dont know much about breakfast items?

johnny cakes with maple syrup.

its more of a Vermont reference.

I guess I need to brush up on my Vermont references. And Tiger, if I was "looking for a way to get rid of" robertbee (or you for that matter) I wouldn't have offered you guys so many suspensions instead of dropping the ban hammer. I wasn't sure what the reference was, so I asked. What's wrong with that?

Besides, bee flaunts his homophobia by calling Alex Rodriguez "*** Rod" as a putdown. Me wondering if he was using a homosexual reference in a derogatory fashion against another board member is hardly a stretch.

robertbee, you owe Vinnie and the entire board an apology. Don't use homophobic terms as insults on this message board. Make a new thread about it as your next post please.

[robertbee]

So do we have a limit of trash talking? We have touched racism, homophobia,

Define trash talking Mark?


Trash Talk all started in pro wrestling, and metastasized from there

and now it is on the spawn board. We have come along way I must say. What good comes out of trash talking?

[fenwayp]

This whole thread is pathetic. I'm sick of it.
I'll just quietly enjoy the Red Sox winning the AL East.

I'm OUT.

[ToightLikeATiger]

hope your proud of this thread Mark. cause of you things are far worse then before. you should be ashamed at the decision you made as board moderator

[whoh8sbacon]

Na-nanny-boo-boo, Toight has no idea what I'm saying..... ;)

[Mark Weber]

What good comes out of trash talking?

What good comes out of it is that this thread keeps it out of the OFFICIAL Yankees and Red Sox threads, both of which were regualrly infiltrated and taken offtopic by fans of the other team.

[XSsoCX]

Can I get a USC vs. UCLA Trash Talking Thread? or a NFC South, maybe Avs vs. Red Wings.........this thread is lame, delete it.

[ToightLikeATiger]

What good comes out of it is that this thread keeps it out of the OFFICIAL Yankees and Red Sox threads, both of which were regualrly infiltrated and taken offtopic by fans of the other team.

yet never got as bad as this thread. main reason why? cause you post consistantly here with ridiculous comments. trying to start racism discussion.

if this thread didnt exist the board would be better off. its way too heated for some now because of this thread.

so congrats Mark, moderator of the message board, you did another bang up job with this decision.

oh btw i thought some of the Yankees fans here were classless but you outdo them all. I feel bad for the true Yankees fans here that post with dignity and class. You are an embarassment to them

[Sbells]

How can spelling bee get away with the Vito and Johnny Cakes references? Spellingbee is clearly calling Vinnie a homosexual. Sure he tries to be witty and disguise it using TV show references, but that doesn't make it right. Mark that has to violate the conduct policy and we know spelling bee has violated that more then once. Just pull the plug on him already. Get him out of here.

Dude, seriously, stop trying to call him out on spelling. Your grammar is FAR from correct. Almost everytime you call him out on it you screw up.

How can spelling bee get away with the Vito and Johnny Cakes references? Spellingbee is clearly calling Vinnie a homosexual. Sure he tries to be witty and disguise it using TV show references, but that doesn't make it right. Mark that has to violate the conduct policy and we know spelling bee has violated that more than once. Just pull the plug on him already. Get him out of here.

[Mavrik28]

Nice to see the Red Sox can beat the NL Least, but still only have a 4 game lead and the Yankees are missing the 2 corner outfielders and their second baseman. What excuses are Red Sox fans going to use when the Red Sox blow the divison lead like they did last year?

[Vinnie4]

I hope Matsui really does come back in August.

[fenwayp]

Again go to hell. Why you would defend a piece of garbage like robertbee is beyond me. I guess scum all sticks together.

Robertbee makes subtle references that insinuate that someone is a homosexual (not that there's anything wrong with that), yet Mavrik28 can sit here and call someone "a piece of garbage" and "scum"...and that seems to be just fine. I am not advocating either, simply pointing out the inconsistency.

Why not just outlaw all namecalling ? What is the benefit ?

[Arodjr]

Yanks win!!! The red sux lose!!! Hoo-ray!!!

[ToightLikeATiger]

Yanks win!!! The red sux lose!!! Hoo-ray!!!

Yup Redsox 12 game win streak came to an end. cant win them all. how many have the Yankees won in a row?

[Arodjr]

Wow!! 12 in a row?? Really? :rolleyes: And they are only 3 games up on the Yankees. Good for them. :rolleyes: Yanks have won 2 in a row. How many have the red sux won in a row?? Yup Redsox 12 game win streak came to an end. cant win them all. how many have the Yankees won in a row?

[ToightLikeATiger]

Wow!! 12 in a row?? Really? :rolleyes: And they are only 3 games up on the Yankees. Good for them. :rolleyes: Yanks have won 2 in a row. How many have the red sux won in a row??

it doesnt matter... both teams are playing well right now. Redsox were play a little better so they had a 4 now 3 game lead.

why come on here here and bash the Redsox after finally losing a game?

i can tell you are a child the way you act so i dont expect you to be able to be mature about it.

but the truth is both teams are playing well and just like every year it will be a close race with both teams winning tons of games

[Mark Weber]

I realize it's a trash talking thread, but can we limit it to talking about the teams, their players, or their organizational history please? There's no need to make personal attacks - which are violations of the OCP and can result in a suspension or ban.

[fenwayp]

I realize it's a trash talking thread, but can we limit it to talking about the teams, their players, or their organizational history please? There's no need to make personal attacks - which are violations of the OCP and can result in a suspension or ban.

I'm in agreement. I have never made any personal attack on anyone. Can I still say that the...

YANKEES SUCK :D :eek: :eek:

[Vinnie4]

I'm curious....why was Mavrik suspended? It can't be for calling names and making personal attacks, since robertbee called me a racist and a homosexual and is still active on the boards. Or did Mavrik refuse to issue a half-@$$ed apology?

[fenwayp]

Yankees are now in a dogfight with the Blue Jays for third place...looks like Yankee fans can start worrying about that along with how they are going to find a way to somehow win the Wildcard, although even that may be a pipedream this year.

Red Sox will leave both in the dust as the season moves on...

[fenwayp]

Radio silence...tumbleweed hustles by...I can only assume that Yankee fans have actually given up on their season at this point :D :D :D

[Mark Weber]

Mavrik got a three-day ban for harassing another boardmember.

[Vinnie4]

No, I've given up on this thread, and some of the morons who visit it.

[Mark Weber]

Disappointing perfromance by Randy today - Ortiz's monster shots make you wonder if Boston could have won Friday night if he wasn't:

A. Such a terrible defensive liability at first base

and/or

B. Afraid of a talented left-handed pitcher like he was ducking Randy Johnson down the stretch last season.

Still, he's a ridiculously dominant hitter. He's sure got that half of the game down.

:)

[Arodjr]

why come on here here and bash the Redsox after finally losing a game?

i can tell you are a child the way you act so i dont expect you to be able to be mature about it.

Ummm, maybe because it's a trash talking thread?? :confused: What, just because you are a red sux fan, I'm not supposed to bash them. Get a life! :rolleyes: By the way you are acting, I can tell you don't get out much. :rolleyes:

[ToightLikeATiger]

Disappointing perfromance by Randy today - Ortiz's monster shots make you wonder if Boston could have won Friday night if he wasn't:

A. Such a terrible defensive liability at first base

and/or

B. Afraid of a talented left-handed pitcher like he was ducking Randy Johnson down the stretch last season.

Still, he's a ridiculously dominant hitter. He's sure got that half of the game down.

:)

Ortiz got the night off because there is no DH.... his knee is still banged up so they went ahead and sat him. He probably could have played but no need to risk it. Yes the lefty probably made it easier to sit him but thats not the reason.

David Ortiz faces lefties all the time. its nbd.

also he never ducked Randy Johnson. he was injured late last year and had to miss a couple games because of it. Ortiz doesnt play 162 games a year.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Ummm, maybe because it's a trash talking thread?? :confused: What, just because you are a red sux fan, I'm not supposed to bash them. Get a life! :rolleyes: By the way you are acting, I can tell you don't get out much. :rolleyes:

welcome to my ignore list. i dont deal with immature children on this board. you need to learn how to give credit where credit is do. maybe when you grow up you will learn how to conduct yourself

[Arodjr]

welcome to my ignore list. i dont deal with immature children on this board. you need to learn how to give credit where credit is do. maybe when you grow up you will learn how to conduct yourself

Hey, just a hint. This is a "trash talking thread". If you don't want to read about the red sux getting bashed, I suggest you do not view this thread. It's for adults who can handle a little ribbing. Unike yourself. :D

[fenwayp]

Yankees fans...after you sink into 3rd place today, are you gonna start talkin' trash to Blue Jays fans ? :D LOL...Yankees are a pathetic team that will continue to fade... :D :D

[kelso]

NESN is reporting that Mark Loretta will win the fan voting and start the game at second base.

[fenwayp]

Loretta was an EXCELLENT acquisition by the Red Sox...

[fenwayp]

Red Sox rolling along again already today behind blasts from Youkilis, Varitek and Big Papi :D

[Vinnie4]

Maybe MLB will let Boston play the National League the rest of the season.

[fenwayp]

Maybe MLB will start a new advertising campaign:

THE YANKEES SUCK

:eek: :eek: :D

[Vinnie4]

The Yankees have been playing well, Boston has just been hot. But they'll cool off eventually. Then the Yankees will just sweep the next couple series against Boston and climb back on top.

[whoh8sbacon]

I wonder, does Toight just use this as a bulletin board for his own posts, and other Red Sox pro posts, since everyone else seems to be on his ignore list! :p

[ToightLikeATiger]

i cant believe Curt Schilling and Jason Giambi were left off the all-star team. they need to get rid of the "every team needs an allstar" rule. A guy like Redman shouldnt even be in attendance let alone on the team.

If the games are going to count you need to make sure the best and only the best are on the field.

[Vinnie4]

I wonder, does Toight just use this as a bulletin board for his own posts, and other Red Sox pro posts, since everyone else seems to be on his ignore list! :p
Yeah. If you disagree with anything he says, you're ignored. Now it's his own little happy place. He should just keep his posts limited to the Red Sox thread.

[Sbells]

Mavrik got a three-day ban for harassing another boardmember.

Damn, and I missed it?

[Mark Weber]

Yankees fans...after you sink into 3rd place today, are you gonna start talkin' trash to Blue Jays fans ? :D LOL...Yankees are a pathetic team that will continue to fade... :D :D

The Yankees have won eight of their last eleven games and done so (mainly) without their All-Star second baseman and completely without their second- and third-best hitters from last season.

Don't confuse Boston's unbelievable hot streak into thinking New York is playing bad baseball. Two things to consider as well: Would Boston be playing as well if Manny Ramirez and Kevin Youkilis had been missing from the lineup for two months? And New York was six games out last year at this time, yet still rebounded to win the division.

Sox fans have every reason to be happy with this year's team - but saying "the Yankees are a pathetic team that will continue to fade" is either blind allegiance at its best or baseball ignorance at its worst.

[fenwayp]

...but saying "the Yankees are a pathetic team that will continue to fade" is either blind allegiance at its best or baseball ignorance at its worst.

But it's FUN to say, and it makes you write lots of words, so it's worth saying :D :eek:

[ToightLikeATiger]

man i wonder where Scott Kazmir will go after Tampa Bay cant afford him and he wants to go win. Redsox and Yankees will be in a bidding war for him.

If i were Mets fans i would be puking my guts right now. That has to be one of the worst trades in recent memory.

Kazmir could really be helping the Mets right now. Kazmir is very good right now in the AL. He would already be great in the NL.

[Arodjr]

man i wonder where Scott Kazmir will go after Tampa Bay cant afford him and he wants to go win. Redsox and Yankees will be in a bidding war for him.

If i were Mets fans i would be puking my guts right now. That has to be one of the worst trades in recent memory.

Kazmir could really be helping the Mets right now. Kazmir is very good right now in the AL. He would already be great in the NL.

What in the world does this have to do with the Yankees vs red sux trash talking thread?? Clueless man, just clueless.

[whoh8sbacon]

I think it's so that you guys can say "Oh, the Yankees are going to get him!" and then the other side can say "No, the Red Sox are going to get him!".

Oh, and arodjr, if you aren't already on it, welcome to toight's ignore list... ;)

[Vinnie4]

I think it's so that you guys can say "Oh, the Yankees are going to get him!" and then the other side can say "No, the Red Sox are going to get him!".

Oh, and arodjr, if you aren't already on it, welcome to toight's ignore list... ;)
Every Yankee fan that posts on this thread except for Mark is on his ignore list. Why does he even come to a TRASH TALKING thread if he's gonna put everyone on ignore?

[Yukoner]

Every Yankee fan that posts on this thread except for Mark is on his ignore list. Why does he even come to a TRASH TALKING thread if he's gonna put everyone on ignore?

Because they're not. It would drive him insane to not see what everyone's saying about him. He pretends they are, doesn't respond to their jibes, then brings up a topic that's an awful lot like an ignored one a little later.

[Vinnie4]

Because they're not. It would drive him insane to not see what everyone's saying about him. He pretends they are, doesn't respond to their jibes, then brings up a topic that's an awful lot like an ignored one a little later.
I have to agree with you on that. Otherwise, he'd just post on the Red Sox thread.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Wow, the D-Rays are really stepping their game up against Boston. Good thing the Jays won't lose any ground tonight.

[Vinnie4]

Well, we saw Boston go on a long win streak........looks like they're starting a streak in the opposite direction now.

[Mark Weber]

Boston's defense has abandoned them this week - seven errors in their last five games, as well as surrendering three stolen bases to Carl Crawford (including one of home plate - ugh) tonight.

In an unrelated note, San Diego catcher Josh Bard is enjoying his exit from Boston, hitting .378 for the Padres and now catching former Sox prospect Cla Meredith out of the SD bullpen.

[Hardcore Legend]

Do Red Sox fans fear the almost certain yet again this season? New York, with arguably two of the best 4 hitters on the DL has once again weathered the early season storm and remained 3-4 games back at the All-Star break. Boston has been operating, in essence, at full strength all season and hasn't been able to put New York away.

[Yukoner]

Do Red Sox fans fear the almost certain yet again this season? New York, with arguably two of the best 4 hitters on the DL has once again weathered the early season storm and remained 3-4 games back at the All-Star break. Boston has been operating, in essence, at full strength all season and hasn't been able to put New York away.

But then why, with the full complement of hitters, weren't the Yankees several games ahead of the Red Sox before they went down?

[fenwayp]

Do Red Sox fans fear the almost certain yet again this season? New York, with arguably two of the best 4 hitters on the DL has once again weathered the early season storm and remained 3-4 games back at the All-Star break. Boston has been operating, in essence, at full strength all season and hasn't been able to put New York away.

Typical arrogant rationalization...bottom line is that the Red Sox have been on an absolute roll. Yankees will continue their slide into missing the playoffs in the 2nd half.

Yankees cannot keep it up, but the Red Sox can maintain their current pace and will put the Yankees out of their misery by August 31st...

[Hardcore Legend]

Cause that's exactly how it's happened each of the last 8 years. Typical Red Sox response: Everything's different now, honest!

[fenwayp]

Cause that's exactly how it's happened each of the last 8 years. Typical Red Sox response: Everything's different now, honest!

Matsui and Sheffield were healthy then, and the Yankees actually had a good pitching staff, unlike this season.

[fenwayp]

Cause that's exactly how it's happened each of the last 8 years. Typical Red Sox response: Everything's different now, honest!

Well, the Red Sox won the World Series in 2004 (in case you forgot :D ), so I guess things are different...Yankees have been the Braves of the new millenium :eek:

[Hardcore Legend]

Firstly, the Yankees pitching staff last year was a hodgepodge.

This year, their 'inferior pitching staff' as I assume you believe it is has a better:
Team ERA
Opponents Batting Average
Opponents Slugging Percentage
Hits per 9 innings
On Base Against
WHIP
..than the division leading Boston Red Sox.

Like I said, impending doom.

[Mavrik28]

Firstly, the Yankees pitching staff last year was a hodgepodge.

This year, their 'inferior pitching staff' as I assume you believe it is has a better:
Team ERA
Opponents Batting Average
Opponents Slugging Percentage
Hits per 9 innings
On Base Against
WHIP
..than the division leading Boston Red Sox.

Like I said, impending doom.

So what if the 2006 Yankees have better numbers. The Red Sox are in 1st. YEAH BABY!!!!!!!. And the 2004 Red Sox are still the best team EVER.

[Mark Weber]

Matsui and Sheffield were healthy then, and the Yankees actually had a good pitching staff, unlike this season.

NY's team ERA is 4th in the A.L. so far this season, while Boston's is 8th. How bad do you think Boston's pitching staff is? Is Beckett a lock to crack 200 innings pitched for the first time in his career this season?

[Mark Weber]

Can anyone name this mystery ballplayer? He entered tonight's game hitting .277 in Close & Late situations...

Top 7: Strikes out swinging with his team leading 3-2.

Top 9: Grounds into inning-ending double play with his team leading 3-2.

Top 11: Is intentionally walked and stranded with his team leading 5-3.

Top 13: Grounds out with two runners on with the score tied 5-5.

Top 15: Flies out to end the inning with the score tied 5-5.

Top 18: Grounds into double play with the score tied 5-5.

[Mavrik28]

NY's team ERA is 4th in the A.L. so far this season, while Boston's is 8th. How bad do you think Boston's pitching staff is? Is Beckett a lock to crack 200 innings pitched for the first time in his career this season?

Joshie is just scuffling a little bit. He'll be fine. He has the wins thats all that matters. He is the ACE of the future. With Curt showing him how to pitch and pump his fist he can only get better. He is a YANKEE killer. 2003 he killed them. Add his 2003 World Series ring to Curt's 2004 World Series ring and Willie Harris' 2005 World Series ring and you have an unbeatable trio of WINNERS.

[ComradeFlyer]

Can anyone name this mystery ballplayer? He entered tonight's game hitting .277 in Close & Late situations...

Top 7: Strikes out swinging with his team leading 3-2.

Top 9: Grounds into inning-ending double play with his team leading 3-2.

Top 11: Is intentionally walked and stranded with his team leading 5-3.

Top 13: Grounds out with two runners on with the score tied 5-5.

Top 15: Flies out to end the inning with the score tied 5-5.

Top 18: Grounds into double play with the score tied 5-5.


Can anyone name this person? He entered tonight a blowhard.

1. Red Head.

2. Has a passion for badmouthing the Red Sox, especially David Ortiz.

3. I quoted him in this Post.

[Hardcore Legend]

Can anyone name this mystery ballplayer? He entered tonight's game hitting .277 in Close & Late situations...

Top 7: Strikes out swinging with his team leading 3-2.

Top 9: Grounds into inning-ending double play with his team leading 3-2.

Top 11: Is intentionally walked and stranded with his team leading 5-3.

Top 13: Grounds out with two runners on with the score tied 5-5.

Top 15: Flies out to end the inning with the score tied 5-5.

Top 18: Grounds into double play with the score tied 5-5.

Is it a jackal? A jackal? Is it a jackal? Is it, huh..huh...huh?

[Yukoner]

Can anyone name this mystery ballplayer? He entered tonight's game hitting .277 in Close & Late situations...

Top 7: Strikes out swinging with his team leading 3-2.

Top 9: Grounds into inning-ending double play with his team leading 3-2.

Top 11: Is intentionally walked and stranded with his team leading 5-3.

Top 13: Grounds out with two runners on with the score tied 5-5.

Top 15: Flies out to end the inning with the score tied 5-5.

Top 18: Grounds into double play with the score tied 5-5.

Yeah, that player must really suck, based on those at-bats. Geez, that player must be the worst ever! No way he could ever lead the league in anything. He's clearly not clutch, given the results of that one game. He's clearly worse than this shortstop I know who went 0-for-4 with two strikeouts and 4 left on base against the worst team in the division.

[ComradeFlyer]

Is it a jackal? A jackal? Is it a jackal? Is it, huh..huh...huh?

no, it is john cafferty & the beaver brown band.

[Yukoner]

Did I forget to mention that this horrible shortstop is hitting .174 in Mark's favorite stat?

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Did I forget to mention that this horrible shortstop is hitting .174 in Mark's favorite stat?

WEB-OWNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111

:eek:

[Yukoner]

VC, this shortstop is so bad he's even been moved out of that position! Know who else that happened to? Russ Franchise Adams... even though he's batting nearly 100 points above the former shortstop in close and late situations.

[orionquest]

Can anyone name this mystery ballplayer? He entered tonight's game hitting .277 in Close & Late situations...

Top 7: Strikes out swinging with his team leading 3-2.

Top 9: Grounds into inning-ending double play with his team leading 3-2.

Top 11: Is intentionally walked and stranded with his team leading 5-3.

Top 13: Grounds out with two runners on with the score tied 5-5.

Top 15: Flies out to end the inning with the score tied 5-5.

Top 18: Grounds into double play with the score tied 5-5.

Oh, Mark, here we go again with the sampling issue. Thanks so much for pointing out the events of one game. I'll see if I can find the time to chronicle the events of the entire season to date, and see if they're similar.

I really enjoy trading insights with you, but I can't help but notice that big (Papi) chip on your shoulder lately. I'm the first person to point out the sabermetric validity of the possible fallacy of "clutch hitting", but it seems like you're on an anti-Ortiz crusade as of late.

Is there something I'm missing, or are his league leading homeruns and RBIs bothering you? ;)

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

VC, this shortstop is so bad he's even been moved out of that position! Know who else that happened to? Russ Franchise Adams... even though he's batting nearly 100 points above the former shortstop in close and late situations.

Please tell me that isn't true, man I feel bad for Jeter.

[Mark Weber]

Did I forget to mention that this horrible shortstop is hitting .174 in Mark's favorite stat?

Jeter is actually hitting .381 in Close & Late situations. My basic point is that Ortiz has been a tremendous clutch hitter throughout his career but he isn't living up to that reputation (so far) this season. What part of that statement are people disagreeing with?

[Mark Weber]

Oh, Mark, here we go again with the sampling issue. Thanks so much for pointing out the events of one game. I'll see if I can find the time to chronicle the events of the entire season to date, and see if they're similar.

I really enjoy trading insights with you, but I can't help but notice that big (Papi) chip on your shoulder lately. I'm the first person to point out the sabermetric validity of the possible fallacy of "clutch hitting", but it seems like you're on an anti-Ortiz crusade as of late.

Is there something I'm missing, or are his league leading homeruns and RBIs bothering you? ;)

All I've said about Ortiz this year is that he's probably the game's most dangerous hitter, but that he hasn't lived up to his own reputation as a clutch hitter and his inability to play defense hurts his team. OQ, are you disagreeing with any of those points?

[Yukoner]

Please tell me that isn't true, man I feel bad for Jeter.

No, I'm talking about the better shortstop on that team... the one who's now playing third.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

No, I'm talking about the better shortstop on that team... the one who's now playing third.

Oh, that guy. Yeah, they mentioned that on PTI once.

[ToightLikeATiger]

All I've said about Ortiz this year is that he's probably the game's most dangerous hitter, but that he hasn't lived up to his own reputation as a clutch hitter and his inability to play defense hurts his team. OQ, are you disagreeing with any of those points?

Redsox are still winning games. Ortiz is still winning games for the Redsox. He leads the league in go ahead RBI's.

Ortiz leads the league in RBI's and HR's. his batting average is also on the rise.

Also his inability to play defense does not hurt the team because they have Kevin Youkilis playing 1b. who is one of the top lead off men in baseball. Sox also have a gold glover in Mike Lowell at 3b.

its not the inability at all. they just dont need him to play 1b. therefore he hurts NOONE.

so your arguments are useless mark.

Ortiz hurts the Redsox in no way. He only helps them win. That is why they are 3 up on the Yankees now and he is one of the top canidates for MVP.

so bash away mark with your fraudulent arguments. you cant change the truth. Ortiz is one of the best hitters in the game right now. and if you ask any manager across the league who would they want up with the game on the line... the answer would be Big Papi.

get over yourself mark, what you say isnt always correct

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

get over yourself mark, what you say isnt always correct

Shhh, don't say that out loud.

:eek:

[Arodjr]

and if you ask any manager across the league who would they want up with the game on the line... the answer would be Big Papi.

mark, what you say is always correct, and I so wish I could be like you!!

I'm thinking most managers would take Pujols!!!

[Hardcore Legend]

I'm thinking most managers would take Pujols!!!

Yeah, I'd imagine so.

[Mark Weber]

No, I'm talking about the better shortstop on that team... the one who's now playing third.

It's true that New York is saddled with two Gold Glove-winning shortstops.

[Mark Weber]

You make some good points, Tiger.

Redsox are still winning games. (Three wins in their last seven games actually).

Ortiz is still winning games for the Redsox. He leads the league in go ahead RBI's. (And the fact that his Close & Late numbers are weaker than his batting average for the first time in his career is not an issue. He's still clutch because Sox fans and SportsCenter highlights tell you so.)

Ortiz leads the league in RBI's and HR's. his batting average is also on the rise. (All true. Ortiz's average has jumped from .260 to .278 in the last month.)

Also his inability to play defense does not hurt the team because they have Kevin Youkilis playing 1b. who is one of the top lead off men in baseball. Sox also have a gold glover in Mike Lowell at 3b. its not the inability at all. they just dont need him at 1b. therefore he hurts NOONE. (Youkilis has had a marvelous first half no doubt, but your statement sounds like an admission that Ortiz was hurting the Sox prior to Youkilis' emergence - during Millar's decline. Still, you'd think the seemingly exhausted Jason Varitek and the occassionally brittle Trot Nixon could use some DH-rest during the long season. Should either or other Sox players fade in the second half, remember the Papi-can't-play first thing and how it hurts NO ONE.)

Ortiz hurts the Redsox in no way. (Ortiz is having another incredible season and I've never taken the stance that he HURTS the Sox, only that he could help them more if his defensive shortcomings didn't relegate him to DH every night - except when he's ducking Dontrelle Willis - and if his "clutch" numbers were up where they normally are.)

Tiger, I don't think my points are automatically correct, but you'll have to make a strong argument to convince me otherwise.

[Mavrik28]

Oritz is the very definition of clutch. His clutchness can't be compared to anyone in the HISTORY of baseball. Who cares that he didn't win MVP last year. MVPs are for chumps. Its all about WORLD SERIES wins. Like the Red Sox in 2004. The best team EVER I might add. Papi doesn't need to field. Fielding is overrated. Like A-Dawg. He's lame. Its all about ORTIZ. He RULES. Pujols and A-Dawg are chumps. Have fun with your MVPs and hall of fame careers. BIG PAPI has a ring.

And according to Buster Olney, scouts around baseball are saying the Red Sox are the best team in baseball. And Buster works for ESPN so you know he is smart.

And sure Papelbon blew his 3rd game of the year and Manny, Ortiz, Trot and Varitek went 2-32 today. They won 2 out of 3 from the Fake Sox. There can only be one true Sox and that color is RED.

Yankees with that #1 payroll and all they are is second place. We have the #2 payroll and are 1st PLACE.

[Yukoner]

Boy Mavrik, that's not getting old or anything.

Seriously, give it a rest. You're acting like a child.

[Vinnie4]

He's clearly worse than this shortstop I know who went 0-for-4 with two strikeouts and 4 left on base against the worst team in the division.

You're talking about the team that took 3 of 4 games against Boston right?

[BlakChamber]

Boy Mavrik, that's not getting old or anything.

Seriously, give it a rest. You're acting like a child.
It has gotten old quick, but you have to admit, you could put it next to a Robertbee post, and they'd be almost the same.

[Vinnie4]

Typical arrogant rationalization...bottom line is that the Red Sox have been on an absolute roll. Yankees will continue their slide into missing the playoffs in the 2nd half.

Yankees cannot keep it up, but the Red Sox can maintain their current pace and will put the Yankees out of their misery by August 31st...
Wow, a 3 game lead at the all-star break is insurmountable.:rolleyes: You'd think after so much let down, you'd think Boston fans would take a 3 game division lead at the break with a grain of salt. And before I hear anything about the new ownership, don't forget last year.

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

You know, the more dominant the AL becomes the more I view the DH as a non-baseball player position. Being a baseball player means you play two ways. I'm in favor of getting rid of the DH.

[Vinnie4]

You know, the more dominant the AL becomes the more I view the DH as a non-baseball player position. Being a baseball player means you play two ways. I'm in favor of getting rid of the DH.
I have to agree. Baseball is more than just offense. I love the NL style of play, and all the managerial moves that take place during the course of the game.

[Hardcore Legend]

Who is your MVP?

• Ranks 3rd in HR (27)
• Ranks 5th in RBI (72)
• Ranks 19th in R (56)
• Ranks 3rd in BB (62)
• Ranks 6th in OBP (.415)
• Ranks 5th in SLG (.611)
• Ranks 5th in OPS (1.026)

or

• Ranks 1st in HR (31)
• Ranks 1st in RBI (87)
• Ranks 5th in R (65)
• Ranks 4th in BB (58)
• Ranks 13th in OBP (.388)
• Ranks 6th in SLG (.609)
• Ranks 6th in OPS (.996)

[BurningSoul]

Who is your MVP?

• Ranks 3rd in HR (27)
• Ranks 5th in RBI (72)
• Ranks 19th in R (56)
• Ranks 3rd in BB (62)
• Ranks 6th in OBP (.415)
• Ranks 5th in SLG (.611)
• Ranks 5th in OPS (1.026)

or

• Ranks 1st in HR (31)
• Ranks 1st in RBI (87)
• Ranks 5th in R (65)
• Ranks 4th in BB (58)
• Ranks 13th in OBP (.388)
• Ranks 6th in SLG (.609)
• Ranks 6th in OPS (.996)

Looks like Giambi vs. Papi there. Giambi has meant just as much to the Yanks this year as Ortiz has to the Red Sox. No way the Yanks are even close to the Sox without Giambi. Still would give the slight edge to Ortiz even though Giambi does play defense.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Giambi does play "defense" (If you call standing out in the field while the opposing team bats that) but all he is an awful first baseman. He has 7 errors in only 44 games at first base, he'd probably be leading all first baseman in that category if the Yankees didn't limit his games there. At least the Red Sox don't let Ortiz go out there and hurt the team.

Conclusion: Ortiz wins for now. He's just unstoppable at the moment.

[nhstunner]

Its awesome how Yankees fans are in favor of getting rid of the DH....its called hating! Ortiz owns A-Dawg, just admit it. Giambi is MUCH more of an impact on that team this year than A-Dawg is anyway. Im looking forward to October this year (as always) hopefully, the Yanks will be there too....

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

Giambi does play "defense" (If you call standing out in the field while the opposing team bats that) but all he is an awful first baseman. He has 7 errors in only 44 games at first base, he'd probably be leading all first baseman in that category if the Yankees didn't limit his games there. At least the Red Sox don't let Ortiz go out there and hurt the team.

Conclusion: Ortiz wins for now. He's just unstoppable at the moment.
No doubt Ortiz is a monster and you proved a valid point - Giambi hurts them in the field. Although the Sox are "smart" enough not to play Papi in the field I wonder how many games he would cost them if he did play the position. I know it wouldn't come near to as many games as he has won for them but it would be something to think about.

But it's a double edge sword, for me at least, because I hate seeing Pitchers bat.

[Vinnie4]

Its awesome how Yankees fans are in favor of getting rid of the DH....its called hating! Ortiz owns A-Dawg, just admit it. Giambi is MUCH more of an impact on that team this year than A-Dawg is anyway. Im looking forward to October this year (as always) hopefully, the Yanks will be there too....
It has nothing to do with Ortiz. I would rather watch a NL game. Living in Vermont, the closest stadium was Olympic Stadium in Montreal. I grew up watching the NL. While the Yankees have always been my favorite team, I prefer the NL style of baseball.

[Mavrik28]

Papi can field. Everyone remembers the great job he did at first base in the 2004 WORLD SERIES. He was clutch. He's always clutch. He doesn't need to play first, its below him. DH is where its at. But if he did play first he'd win a gold glove cause he's jsut so darn CLUTCH.

[Mavrik28]

Yankees fans want to get rid of the DH because they fear Ortiz. In fact I bet Yankees fans want to get rid of all the teams in baseball.

And A-Dawg sucks.

[orionquest]

All I've said about Ortiz this year is that he's probably the game's most dangerous hitter, but that he hasn't lived up to his own reputation as a clutch hitter and his inability to play defense hurts his team. OQ, are you disagreeing with any of those points?

Fair enough. And, yes, I'm disagreeing.

One the first point, I think it's a matter of how "clutch" is defined. And, I do agree with you that, when averaged out mathematically, Ortiz isn't as spectacular as advertised. :eek: I know that some of my fellow Sox fans may consider that blasphemy, but I get the math and don't argue it.

I define the term differently. The dramatic ways in which Ortiz has helped take leads, tie, or even produce a win via walkoff make a huge impact psychologically. An entire team approaches a tight game differently when backed by the confidence of players with big moments like Ortiz. And I think that his, and Manny's presence, fuel the others.

Fact is, I think your Yankees have the same thing going. Jeter's presence is certainly like that. At the bat, Giambi's is, too. And I'm confident that most athletes will admit that having a superstar on their team gives them a mental edge. I believe that it's a huge part of how the Yankees are playing so well and keeping pace with the Sox. (And, Sox Nation... time to admit it, the Evil Empire is playing far beyond what's on paper.) That psychological edge, above all else, is where I see Big Papi's impact.

Now, as for your fielding claim, I disagree, too. I don't see where the team is being hurt. Would it have a larger impact in the National League? Of course. Good thing my Sox are firmly planted in the American. But, additionally, he's not as bad as you claim. I held before that your previous sampling was too small. And it is. It's the math. Is he a bad first baseman? No. Is he as good as Kevin Youkilis? Hell, no. But the American league gives us the Designated Hitter, and he's playing the role just fine. The Sox played in National League parks during a winning streak, and he took his turns at first, and performed just fine. (The Youkilis-Lowell-Ortiz trifecta was well played.)

So, in fairness, let me ask you this: Do Jason Giambi's issues at first base hurt the Yankees?

[Therman Merman]

Orion, if I haven't mentioned this already, (and I don't believe that I have) let me just say, I wish more Red Sox fans on this board were like you. Your points are intellegent, well thought out, and well articulated. You don't allow your dislike of the Yankees to cause you to spew childish babble, as so many others do on this board. I may not agree with everything you say, but I always enjoy reading your posts.

[Vinnie4]

Fair enough. And, yes, I'm disagreeing.

One the first point, I think it's a matter of how "clutch" is defined. And, I do agree with you that, when averaged out mathematically, Ortiz isn't as spectacular as advertised. :eek: I know that some of my fellow Sox fans may consider that blasphemy, but I get the math and don't argue it.

I define the term differently. The dramatic ways in which Ortiz has helped take leads, tie, or even produce a win via walkoff make a huge impact psychologically. An entire team approaches a tight game differently when backed by the confidence of players with big moments like Ortiz. And I think that his, and Manny's presence, fuel the others.

Fact is, I think your Yankees have the same thing going. Jeter's presence is certainly like that. At the bat, Giambi's is, too. And I'm confident that most athletes will admit that having a superstar on their team gives them a mental edge. I believe that it's a huge part of how the Yankees are playing so well and keeping pace with the Sox. (And, Sox Nation... time to admit it, the Evil Empire is playing far beyond what's on paper.) That psychological edge, above all else, is where I see Big Papi's impact.

Now, as for your fielding claim, I disagree, too. I don't see where the team is being hurt. Would it have a larger impact in the National League? Of course. Good thing my Sox are firmly planted in the American. But, additionally, he's not as bad as you claim. I held before that your previous sampling was too small. And it is. It's the math. Is he a bad first baseman? No. Is he as good as Kevin Youkilis? Hell, no. But the American league gives us the Designated Hitter, and he's playing the role just fine. The Sox played in National League parks during a winning streak, and he took his turns at first, and performed just fine. (The Youkilis-Lowell-Ortiz trifecta was well played.)

So, in fairness, let me ask you this: Do Jason Giambi's issues at first base hurt the Yankees?
Yeah, at times Giambi does hurt the Yankees at first base. And I agree with Mark as well. Mark's point is that if Ortiz plyed first better, other aging Red Sox players could come in as DH and get an occasional break from the wear and tear of playing the field everyday, while keeping their bat in the lineup.

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

Yankees fans want to get rid of the DH because they fear Ortiz. In fact I bet Yankees fans want to get rid of all the teams in baseball.

And A-Dawg sucks.
When did you become a Sox fan? I could have swore you were a Yankee fan!!! *** bro?

[BlakChamber]

When did you become a Sox fan? I could have swore you were a Yankee fan!!! *** bro?
He's mocking most of the Red Sox fans that post ;)

[orionquest]

Yeah, at times Giambi does hurt the Yankees at first base. And I agree with Mark as well. Mark's point is that if Ortiz plyed first better, other aging Red Sox players could come in as DH and get an occasional break from the wear and tear of playing the field everyday, while keeping their bat in the lineup.

Vinnie, as much as that strategy would work, I think the Sox have taken the approach that the DH spot is permanently filled, and they fill their bench well in order to give guys rest when necessary. Players like Gabe Kapler and Wily Mo Pena and Doug Mirabelli would be starters on the lower half of the teams in the league. The management adjusts accordingly.

[orionquest]

Orion, if I haven't mentioned this already, (and I don't believe that I have) let me just say, I wish more Red Sox fans on this board were like you. Your points are intellegent, well thought out, and well articulated. You don't allow your dislike of the Yankees to cause you to spew childish babble, as so many others do on this board. I may not agree with everything you say, but I always enjoy reading your posts.

TM, thanks for the compliment. I love my Sox, but it doesn't mean that reason has to be thrown out the window. As I've said before, we're all lucky to be part of the greatest rivalry in professional sports, and we should all be thankful we're not stuck as Royals or Pirates fans right now.

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

He's mocking most of the Red Sox fans that post ;)
I guess it's a job well done because he sounds just like a Sox fan..... :) He fooled me a person who doesn't read this thread very often...

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

That got old...ohhhh, about 5 minutes after his first post.

LAME.

[Hardcore Legend]

I find it actually quite amusing as it's pretty dead on.

[Therman Merman]

That got old...ohhhh, about 5 minutes after his first post.

LAME.Dude, the only thing lame about it, is that it's a pretty accurate portrayal of the majority of Sox fans who post on this board.

[Vinnie4]

Vinnie, as much as that strategy would work, I think the Sox have taken the approach that the DH spot is permanently filled, and they fill their bench well in order to give guys rest when necessary. Players like Gabe Kapler and Wily Mo Pena and Doug Mirabelli would be starters on the lower half of the teams in the league. The management adjusts accordingly.
I see what you're saying, but would you rather replace Varitek's bat with Mirabelli, or have Tek DH on Wakefield's starts?

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

Dude, the only thing lame about it, is that it's a pretty accurate portrayal of the majority of Sox fans who post on this board.
I second that. I was honestly fooled by him. I know his av used to be boxing gloves and location "boston" so I was shocked to learn he was a Yankees fan - so I thought he was bluffing us the whole time to **** with us yankee fans..

It's pretty dead on in my opinion.

[orionquest]

I see what you're saying, but would you rather replace Varitek's bat with Mirabelli, or have Tek DH on Wakefield's starts?

Interesting example. In this case, I think Tek needs to rest on days he's not playing. He shouldn't do more than pinch hit in tight situations. He's currently having a terrible year at the plate (Alex Gonzales looks like Ted Williams in comparison) and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that he plays so much and works so hard.

As much as I understand the overall argument, it's difficult to pinpoint the merits of one method versus the other. On last year's team, for instance, Mark's view makes sense. In fact, I think the only reason Ortiz didn't get more time in the field and Francona didn't experiment with the idea was that Millar was still riding the 2004-Idiots' hangover.. It was pretty clear come late August that he wasn't going to rebound.

But, this year, there's just no reason to take Youkilis out of the lineup. He's matured far faster than anyone anticipated, making the entire infield Gold Glove caliber. Plus, his bat is so reliable that Ortiz is nuch better off in the DH slot for the year.

My one concern is that all this time in that position will weaken his fielding skills. As competent as he's been during those few interleague games in NL houses, the team is fortunate that he hasn't been tested. Had an opposing team taken a lead in the 6th or 7th on a line drive that he couldn't get but Youkilis likely would, then the debate would gain some momentum in Boston.

[orionquest]

Of note from today's Baseball Prospectus, by Will Carroll:

"I won’t be seeing Manny Ramirez in Pittsburgh. The top vote getter is taking a disproportionate amount of heat for missing the game, even getting openly questioned on yesterday’s Fox telecast. Tim McCarver said the worst thing about his knee injury was “remembering which leg to limp with.” It’s easy to say that Ramirez is faking an injury, but almost as easy to actually check on the injury. Ramirez is suffering from a small tear in the medial meniscus of his right knee. It’s an injury he can play with, but one that can “grind,” a bone-on-bone situation that is unpredictable and painful. The decision was made a while ago by the Red Sox to keep Manny on the field as much as possible. One possible solution that’s been mentioned is using Ramirez at DH more often, moving Kevin Youkilis to LF and David Ortiz to 1B. There’s some defensive penalty to be paid, but it keeps the best bats in the lineup."

An interesting take on the discussion at hand.

Baseball Prospectus (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5284)

[Mavrik28]

I salute you Orionquest you are one of the few people on here that is able to review your favorite team objectively.

[Mavrik28]

I don't have a problem with the DH at all. Its a part of baseball. If Selig was smart he'd just make it in both leagues. A player could help his team in the NL if he was coming back from injury and didn't have to deal with playing the field. I bet with the DH in the NL Larry Walker would still be playing.

And there are a lot of really good players like Papi and Hafner and Giambi that can never go to the NL because of their gloves or lack of glove. Garret Anderson is a player that will be a permanent DH soon, he's a very good player, but he'll be staying in the AL. Barry Bonds will end up in the AL next season. How many more homers would Andre Dawson and Dale Murphy have if there was a DH in the NL? They may have ended up with enough to go to the hall of fame.

[Hardcore Legend]

Keep your mutant Designated Hitter rule in the National League. I prefer all players to have to be able to play both sides of the ball.

[Yukoner]

Keep your mutant Designated Hitter rule in the National League. I prefer all players to have to be able to play both sides of the ball.

A free out every three or less innings doesn't excite me, nor does it add to the quality of baseball. Essentially, you are forced to play with seven hitters, as any key early situation (Close and Early, Mark?) means the #8 hitter gets a free pass.

[Hardcore Legend]

A free out every three or less innings doesn't excite me, nor does it add to the quality of baseball. Essentially, you are forced to play with seven hitters, as any key early situation (Close and Early, Mark?) means the #8 hitter gets a free pass.

That's not true. It requires you to have a deeper bench with more situational hitters. It requires you to occasionally have pitchers who can hold their own in the batters box. Double switches and strategic lineup moves are far more interesting to me than the DH.

[Mavrik28]

That's not true. It requires you to have a deeper bench with more situational hitters. It requires you to occasionally have pitchers who can hold their own in the batters box. Double switches and strategic lineup moves are far more interesting to me than the DH.

There may be more strategy involved in a NL game, but as we've seen with the All Star game and the World Series, that strategy doesn't mean jack. Besides chicks dig the long ball and the DH can give you the long one.

[orionquest]

I salute you Orionquest you are one of the few people on here that is able to review your favorite team objectively.

Thanks, Mavrik.

With nothing but the greatest respect to my fellow Sox boardies that show their love and passion for our team, I would love to see the level of discussion about our rivalries continue to escalate.

Well-informed Yankees fans are tired of Sox fans who push nothing but "Yankees Suck!" in one form or another. Well-informed Sox fans are tired of "Of course we'll win, we're the Yankees" and "2004 was an abberation".

The more we can see the rivalry for what it is, the more enjoyable it gets. :D

[Mavrik28]

Thanks, Mavrik.

With nothing but the greatest respect to my fellow Sox boardies that show their love and passion for our team, I would love to see the level of discussion about our rivalries continue to escalate.

Well-informed Yankees fans are tired of Sox fans who push nothing but "Yankees Suck!" in one form or another. Well-informed Sox fans are tired of "Of course we'll win, we're the Yankees" and "2004 was an abberation".

The more we can see the rivalry for what it is, the more enjoyable it gets. :D

The rivalry really is enjoyable. Forget the hate and arguments each side gets into, everytime these 2 play each other you never know whats going to happen.

And I agree with the whole Yankees sucks vs 2004 was an abberation. Its immature. Intelligent Red Sox fans gave due to the Yankees for the 4 World Series wins and I know as a Yankees fan I give all the credit in the world to the 2004 Red Sox. They had a great team and were rightfully one of the favorites to win it all going into the 2004 season. I wasn't shocked that they came back, I was shocked that the Yankees were up 3 games to nothing. That 2004 Red Sox team had the better pitching and as we know pitching wins championships.

Both teams have started to change the way they do things. The Yankees with Brian Cashman have gotten back to putting an emphasis on developing young talent, like Melky and Wang and Cano. Players like Philip Hughes are untouchable.

The Red Sox with Theo have also put an emphasis on the minor leagues and the Red Sox are also not afraid to spend money. Plus Red Sox ownership has been smart to find new revenue streams to bring in money for the ball club. Fr years there was this belief that the Red Sox were a small market team. They weren't. The new owners aren't afraid to spend.

Winning is expensive. The Angels and White Sox both saw their payrolls go up after winning a World Series. The key is to balance spending with the young players. And I see both the Yankees and Red Sox doing that.

[Hardcore Legend]

There may be more strategy involved in a NL game, but as we've seen with the All Star game and the World Series, that strategy doesn't mean jack. Besides chicks dig the long ball and the DH can give you the long one.

No, the difference in those last two World Series were pitching. Both NL teams had their Ace's hampered with injuries or not even pitching and both AL teams had theirs out on the mound.

Last night you saw that even with the best AL hitters in the game, good pitching kept them underwraps. I can't help it that Phil Garner is an idiot of a coach and had Miguel Cabrera in the game for defense with the lead while Scott Rolen sat on the bench.

Interleague is a different story that I'm not going to dispute.

[Mavrik28]

No, the difference in those last two World Series were pitching. Both NL teams had their Ace's hampered with injuries or not even pitching and both AL teams had theirs out on the mound.

Last night you saw that even with the best AL hitters in the game, good pitching kept them underwraps. I can't help it that Phil Garner is an idiot of a coach and had Miguel Cabrera in the game for defense with the lead while Scott Rolen sat on the bench.

Interleague is a different story that I'm not going to dispute.

The 2004 Red Sox and 2005 White Sox of course had the better pitching and the better 1 through 9 hitters.

The AL shut down the NL hitters just as easily. If not for a passed ball then the score would have been 1 to 1 heading into the 9th. The AL overall is better. Its that simple. The pitching and the hitters. The AL has won the last bunch of All Star games and World Series because they are the better league.

[Hardcore Legend]

Better hitters 1 through 9? Please.

[Mavrik28]

Better hitters 1 through 9? Please.

I'd take the 2004 Red Sox World Series hitters over the 2004 St. Louis Cardinals World Series hitters.

The 2005 White Sox World Series hitters were WAY better then the 2005 Astros World Series hitters.

The AL has won 4 straight World Series games. The NL hasn't had a defending champion repeat since the 1975 -1976 Reds. And the NL hasn't won back to back World Series since the stretch of 4 straight by the NL from 1979 to 1982. Since that 4 year stretch the AL has won 15 of the next 22 World Series.

The NL is not as good the AL. Its simple as that. I enjoy AL ball you enjoy NL ball. Nothing wrong with that.

[Hardcore Legend]

But your statement that you'd take all 9 Red Sox hitters over the 9 Cardinals hitters is silly.

Pujols - .331/46/123
Ortiz - .301/41/139
Adv. Pujols

2B
Bellhorn - .264/17/82
Womack - .307/5/38
I'll give it to Bellhorn, even though as a leadoff hitter Womack did what he was supposed to.

SS
Cabrera - .264/10/62
Renteria - .287/10/72
Renteria, no question

3B
Rolen - .314/34/124
Mueller - .283/12/57
Rolen

LF
Manny - .308/43/130
Sanders - .260/22/67
Manny

CF
Edmonds - .301/42/111
Damon - .304/20/94
Edmonds

LF
Walker - .298/17/47
Nixon - .315/6/23
Walker

Catcher
It's Varitek, I'm not even going to compare.

So, position wise, Cardinals 5 - Red Sox 3. The difference was that the Red Sox had Schilling, Pedro and Lowe (all aces on any other team they went to sans a few) where as the Cards had Matt Morris, Woody Williams and Jeff Suppan.

[Mavrik28]

But your statement that you'd take all 9 Red Sox hitters over the 9 Cardinals hitters is silly.

Pujols - .331/46/123
Ortiz - .301/41/139
Adv. Pujols
I2B
Bellhorn - .264/17/82
Womack - .307/5/38
I'll give it to Bellhorn, even though as a leadoff hitter Womack did what he was supposed to.

SS
Cabrera - .264/10/62
Renteria - .287/10/72
Renteria, no question

3B
Rolen - .314/34/124
Mueller - .283/12/57
Rolen

LF
Manny - .308/43/130
Sanders - .260/22/67
Manny

CF
Edmonds - .301/42/111
Damon - .304/20/94
Edmonds

LF
Walker - .298/17/47
Nixon - .315/6/23
Walker

Catcher
It's Varitek, I'm not even going to compare.

So, position wise, Cardinals 5 - Red Sox 3. The difference was that the Red Sox had Schilling, Pedro and Lowe (all aces on any other team they went to sans a few) where as the Cards had Matt Morris, Woody Williams and Jeff Suppan.

Papi versus Pujols is a wash. Both put up huge numbers and Papi was just fine in the field for the 2 games he played.

Damon over Edmonds in my book. Damon meant a lot to that team and was alot more valuable to the Red Sox then Edmonds was to the Cards. Yeah Edmonds plays great D, but Damon wasn't exactly crap. Damon was also the lead off guy and he put up great numbers in the 1 hole. But you could call it a push, no way one is way better then the other.

Heading into that World Series Rolen was banged up. No way I'd take him in that post season over Mueller. Overall yes I'd take Rolen any day, but I'm just looking at the teams as they were heading into the World Series.

Bottom line is the Cards lost so it doesn't matter. As long as Tony LaRussa is managing you guys you are never going to win the World Series. And I love Rolen but is he every going to stay healthy?

I can't believe I'm actually defending the Red Sox.

[Hardcore Legend]

The 'banged up Scott Rolen' hit .310 with 3 HRs and 6 RBIs in the NLCS. Whatever. The fact remains, the Cardinals had a offense the likes not seen since Murderer's Row (Walker, Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds, Sanders, Renteria) and the Boston pitchers in essence shut them down. The Cardinals put up 9 runs in Game 1. If you score 9 runs in the World Series, no way should you lose. Games 2, 3 and 4, they got buzzsawed by Schilling, Pedro and Lowe.

When players are better, you can't say it's 'a wash'. Hank Aaron hit 755 HRs and Reggie Jackson hit 563 Hrs. Both put up monster numbers, so it's a wash. No, doesn't work that way.

That isn't taking anything away from 2004 Red Sox. But the difference between the two teams had little to do with the DH or offensive power but the fact that the Red Sox had 3 really good pitchers and the Cardinals did not.

Likewise, the Astros offense was horrid last year and they were down to two really good starting pitchers (Oswalt and Pettite). Clemens was a shell of himself injured and never should have started in Chicago. The White Sox had a 6 man rotation that was dominant.

[Mark Weber]

So, in fairness, let me ask you this: Do Jason Giambi's issues at first base hurt the Yankees?

Giambi's shortcomings as a defensive first baseman do hurt the Yankees, which is why I was impressed reading about him turning in extra work with Don Mattingly this Spring specifically working on his defense. Giambi wants to get better, while it seems Ortiz is simply content to take his four hacks a game and offer Boston minimal flexibility with him in their everyday lineup.

As for the statistical sampling being too small to criticize Ortiz's defense, his fielding percentage has dropped in three straight seasons - from .992 to .986 to .976 while Boston has curtailed his playing time from 45 games to 34 games to ten games (now down to seven games this season, with another fielding percentage of .976 - currently ranking him as the 116th-best fielding first baseman in the Major Leagues.) I think that's a large enough sample to consider, and I also think it's hypocritical to say three-and-a-half straight seasons of increasingly bad defense is "too small a smaple" and then cite one play from the 2004 World Series as a counter-argument.

[Mark Weber]

Vinnie, as much as that strategy would work, I think the Sox have taken the approach that the DH spot is permanently filled, and they fill their bench well in order to give guys rest when necessary. Players like Gabe Kapler and Wily Mo Pena and Doug Mirabelli would be starters on the lower half of the teams in the league. The management adjusts accordingly.

I don't disagree with any of this except the Mirabelli comment. His sub-.200 batting average would kill a team as an everyday starter. He is most valuable in Boston where he handles perhaps the league's toughest pitcher (to catch) Tim Wakefield, and offers aging catcher Jason Varitek his only break from the everyday lineup with Boston's DH spot permanently filled.

[Mark Weber]

My one concern is that all this time in that position will weaken his fielding skills. As competent as he's been during those few interleague games in NL houses, the team is fortunate that he hasn't been tested. Had an opposing team taken a lead in the 6th or 7th on a line drive that he couldn't get but Youkilis likely would, then the debate would gain some momentum in Boston.

OQ, this is my main bone of contention with Ortiz. He has been such a dominant force the last few years that lots of fans and media give him the benefit of the doubt or worse, outright believe and promote inaccuracies about him. ESPN celebrates how "money" he's been in the clutch this season when the numbers don't bear that out. You mention how "competent" he's been playing 1B in interleague play, when the reality is he's following up last year's abysmal .976 fielding percentage with another .976 fielding percentage. How bad a season does he have to turn in defensively before Boston fans will acknowledge that he might not be a very good defnesive first baseman?

[Vinnie4]

A free out every three or less innings doesn't excite me, nor does it add to the quality of baseball. Essentially, you are forced to play with seven hitters, as any key early situation (Close and Early, Mark?) means the #8 hitter gets a free pass.

This means having to work and manufacture runs via bunting, base stealing, hit-and-run, etc. Which makes for more strategy throughout the game. And when a pitcher comes up and helps the cause with a base hit, or a home run, it adds that much more excitement. And come on, everyone who grew up playing youth baseball played both sides of the ball. Nobody came in to hit for the pitcher. Keep the game true.

[Vinnie4]

No, the difference in those last two World Series were pitching. Both NL teams had their Ace's hampered with injuries or not even pitching and both AL teams had theirs out on the mound.

Last night you saw that even with the best AL hitters in the game, good pitching kept them underwraps. I can't help it that Phil Garner is an idiot of a coach and had Miguel Cabrera in the game for defense with the lead while Scott Rolen sat on the bench.

Interleague is a different story that I'm not going to dispute.
I think that the DH has helped to make the AL pitchers better. With no pitcher ABs, AL pitching needs to bear down through an entire lineup.

[Yukoner]

This means having to work and manufacture runs via bunting, base stealing, hit-and-run, etc. Which makes for more strategy throughout the game. And when a pitcher comes up and helps the cause with a base hit, or a home run, it adds that much more excitement. And come on, everyone who grew up playing youth baseball played both sides of the ball. Nobody came in to hit for the pitcher. Keep the game true.

We used DH in Bantam (13-15) and Midget (16-18). Our pitchers loved it.

Base stealing and hit-and-runs are poor statistical plays, as any sabermatician can tell you. As for the excitement of seeing Randy Johnson swing a bat? I'll pass, and gladly see Giambi step in instead.

[Vinnie4]

We used DH in Bantam (13-15) and Midget (16-18). Our pitchers loved it.

Base stealing and hit-and-runs are poor statistical plays, as any sabermatician can tell you. As for the excitement of seeing Randy Johnson swing a bat? I'll pass, and gladly see Giambi step in instead.
I agree that the AL is more exciting with much more offense coming from the DH position. And I'll watch Giambi hit over Johnson anyday. I just like the chess game mentality of NL games. It does suck when the team is down by a run and the pitcher comes to the plate, but you take the good with bad.

[orionquest]

Giambi's shortcomings as a defensive first baseman do hurt the Yankees, which is why I was impressed reading about him turning in extra work with Don Mattingly this Spring specifically working on his defense. Giambi wants to get better, while it seems Ortiz is simply content to take his four hacks a game and offer Boston minimal flexibility with him in their everyday lineup.

As for the statistical sampling being too small to criticize Ortiz's defense, his fielding percentage has dropped in three straight seasons - from .992 to .986 to .976 while Boston has curtailed his playing time from 45 games to 34 games to ten games (now down to seven games this season, with another fielding percentage of .976 - currently ranking him as the 116th-best fielding first baseman in the Major Leagues.) I think that's a large enough sample to consider, and I also think it's hypocritical to say three-and-a-half straight seasons of increasingly bad defense is "too small a smaple" and then cite one play from the 2004 World Series as a counter-argument.

I find it admirable of Giambi to work hard to improve his defense, and appreciate your acknowledgement of his issues at the position. But I still hold to my sampling issues regarding Ortiz.

I haven't heard any reports that he refuses to work on his defense, and that defense would likely improve if he were to play the position more. Would he be regarded as a higher-tier first baseman? I doubt it. But, with as much objectivity as I can muster, I don't recall many instances where his defensive issues cost the team in a key situation.

My issue with the sampling is that he hasn't played much of a season for team at the position, and baseball is a game where large samples are necessary to judge players performances. When judging batting, for instance, many players hit in the upper .300s or lower .200s from April through May, even into June. Most often, they balance out close to their career averages by the end of the season. Fielding works the same way. But he's played so few games that the sample isn't worthy.

So, yes, he isn't a great fielder, but the Sox management has better options, and they're using them. Youkilis is clearly superior as a fielder, and has been amazing at the plate. The AL has the DH, and Papi hits. So, they use what they got. If the Yankees, by comparison, has a player like Youk to utilize, they might keep him at first and make Giambi a more frequent DH. But, with Sheff and Matsui out, they do what they have to. And, to my chagrin, they're doing it well.

As for Ortiz's one moment on the 2004 World Series, I do hope that you didn't think that I consider it to be a valid arugment. It was just a humorous mentioning of a key moment that we Sox fans cherish. Using that moment to defend Ortiz's fielding skills would be like using the 1978 Sox-Yanks playoff game to claim that Bucky Dent was a great career batter.

[orionquest]

OQ, this is my main bone of contention with Ortiz. He has been such a dominant force the last few years that lots of fans and media give him the benefit of the doubt or worse, outright believe and promote inaccuracies about him. ESPN celebrates how "money" he's been in the clutch this season when the numbers don't bear that out. You mention how "competent" he's been playing 1B in interleague play, when the reality is he's following up last year's abysmal .976 fielding percentage with another .976 fielding percentage. How bad a season does he have to turn in defensively before Boston fans will acknowledge that he might not be a very good defnesive first baseman?

I think you bring up a very fair point here, Mark. ESPN is pushing Papi like crazy lately. It's getting to a point, where as a baseball fan (not just a Red Sox fan) that I wish they would stop. It reminds me of all of the Derek Jeter worship that they would hype, where many of the numbers didn't back that up, either. And I find that Jeter's intangible value is the same as Ortiz's: players on his team get a boost of confidence, and calm, knowing that he's there and will perform. He just might do something unexpected that turns the game. There's no "highlight-making-game-changing-play" statistic, but Ortiz and Jeter both seem to rank high on that imaginary scale. And it's a scale that matters.

What bothers me about ESPNs actions is that, in some way, they set him up to fail. And when he doesn't come through, it gets swept under the rug. I've watched Jeter miss some balls up the middle that A-Rod might have gotten to in that position. You commented quite fairly that Papi did nothing in extra innings against the White Sox on Sunday. Neither of these types of moments get mentioned.

But, were they to ever happen more frequently, and either one said something stupid to the press in a moment of frustration, the press tide could unfairly turn on either one. And I, as a baseball fan, don't want to see that.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

http://espn-att.starwave.com/photo/2006/0713/mlb_g_jeterpapi_412.jpg

Make peace, not war!

[orionquest]

Great article on ESPN.com highlighting many of the issues discussed here, and more:

Sox-Yanks: AL East (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2515242)

[Mark Weber]

My issue with the sampling is that he hasn't played much of a season for team at the position, and baseball is a game where large samples are necessary to judge players performances. When judging batting, for instance, many players hit in the upper .300s or lower .200s from April through May, even into June. Most often, they balance out close to their career averages by the end of the season. Fielding works the same way. But he's played so few games that the sample isn't worthy.

I would argue that fielding is much different than batting - you don't see players "slump defensively" very often. In fact, a guy with a slick glove can keep himself in thel ineup even when he's struggling at the plate. I can't recall a player who was hitting well that was benched for his defensive shortcomings.

[Mark Weber]

I think you bring up a very fair point here, Mark. ESPN is pushing Papi like crazy lately. It's getting to a point, where as a baseball fan (not just a Red Sox fan) that I wish they would stop. It reminds me of all of the Derek Jeter worship that they would hype, where many of the numbers didn't back that up, either. And I find that Jeter's intangible value is the same as Ortiz's: players on his team get a boost of confidence, and calm, knowing that he's there and will perform. He just might do something unexpected that turns the game. There's no "highlight-making-game-changing-play" statistic, but Ortiz and Jeter both seem to rank high on that imaginary scale. And it's a scale that matters.

I think it's fair to compare Jeter and Ortiz - both as driving forces for both clubs. So far this season, Jeter's "close & late" numbers dwarf Ortiz's, and his defensive contributions help the Yankees, while Ortiz's defensive shortcomings hurt the Red Sox. I would argue that Jeter's "intangible value" is at least 1/3 greater than Ortiz's, since Ortiz's influence only extends from the clubhouse to the plate, and not onto the field defensively.

[orionquest]

I would argue that fielding is much different than batting - you don't see players "slump defensively" very often. In fact, a guy with a slick glove can keep himself in thel ineup even when he's struggling at the plate. I can't recall a player who was hitting well that was benched for his defensive shortcomings.

I have to disagree with you here. I'm seen players slump defensively plenty of times. I recall Chuck Knoblauch having a terrible time one year, after plenty of great seasons. Renteria was awful defensively for Boston last year, which now looks like a speedbump for him overall.

And, yes, a sick glove can keep guys in the lineup. But, conversely, doesn't batting .387 but being sub-par defensively keep a player in the lineup in the no-DH National League? Fortunately, the AL need not worry about such an issue.

[Vinnie4]

I know there is a thread about this already, but the Yankees signing Ponson isn't a bad risk. Signing him and only paying $150,000-$175,000 of his contract. And he can slide into the 5th spot into the rotation. I hope he does well in NY.(For obvious reasons):D

[Mark Weber]

I have to disagree with you here. I'm seen players slump defensively plenty of times. I recall Chuck Knoblauch having a terrible time one year, after plenty of great seasons. Renteria was awful defensively for Boston last year, which now looks like a speedbump for him overall.

And, yes, a sick glove can keep guys in the lineup. But, conversely, doesn't batting .387 but being sub-par defensively keep a player in the lineup in the no-DH National League? Fortunately, the AL need not worry about such an issue.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it doesn't happen very often. Wasn't Renteria playing hurt most of last season?

[orionquest]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it doesn't happen very often. Wasn't Renteria playing hurt most of last season?

That's the $15 million question. I recall reading both that he was and he wasn't. I've heard that the "pressure" was a big part of it, but I don't ever recall seeing much about Renteria on NESN or in the Globe or Herald. Foulke and Bellhorn were hearing it from the fans, not Edgar.

Yet everything is cheery in Atlanta. So, who knows?

[Arodjr]

Boy, those Yankees just keep losing ground more and more every day! ;) Seriously though red sux fans, why do they keep pitching Tavarez? Does he ever get an out?

[LI-Mike]

look arodjr is back the yankess must have won...the only time he comes around..

[Hardcore Legend]

Do Red Sox fans fear the almost certain yet again this season? New York, with arguably two of the best 4 hitters on the DL has once again weathered the early season storm and remained 3-4 games back at the All-Star break. Boston has been operating, in essence, at full strength all season and hasn't been able to put New York away.

Well?

[Vinnie4]

Typical arrogant rationalization...bottom line is that the Red Sox have been on an absolute roll. Yankees will continue their slide into missing the playoffs in the 2nd half.

Yankees cannot keep it up, but the Red Sox can maintain their current pace and will put the Yankees out of their misery by August 31st...
Boston's lead was cut in half in a span of 2 days. And if Boston keeps doing what they did last night, the Yankees will be back on top by next week.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Do Red Sox fans fear the almost certain yet again this season? New York, with arguably two of the best 4 hitters on the DL has once again weathered the early season storm and remained 3-4 games back at the All-Star break. Boston has been operating, in essence, at full strength all season and hasn't been able to put New York away.

Those poor, poor Yankees, instead of having four hitters who could hit clean-up for any of the 29 other teams in baseball, they are only left with two. It truly is a sad situation, let's shed a tear for them.:rolleyes:

[Hardcore Legend]

Yeah, but without being able to pick up stellar pitching like economical contracted AJ Burnett...they need those 4 hitters.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Do you have ADD? Try to focus here. What does AJ Burnett have to do with the Yankees?

BTW, the Yankee pitching "woes" is the most overstated problem in baseball. They are a top 10 pitching team that just needs the media to make excuses for them so they look like world beaters.

[Mavrik28]

Do you have ADD? Try to focus here. What does AJ Burnett have to do with the Yankees?

BTW, the Yankee pitching "woes" is the most overstated problem in baseball. They are a top 10 pitching team that just needs the media to make excuses for them so they look like world beaters.

The media hates the Yanks. They love to report any problems they have and make them seem bigger then they are. Their pitching has been fine, but USA Today, SI, ESPN, etc all make it appear otherwise. Anyone who pays attention to the media is a fool.

Now in regards to Marlins pitchers, stay away from them. Pavano has yet to do anything. Burnett was a waste of time and Beckett is flirting with the single season homerun record.

[Hardcore Legend]

Do you have ADD? Try to focus here. What does AJ Burnett have to do with the Yankees?


Just as much as the other 29 teams hitting woes have to do with the Yankees missing 2 of their Top 4 hitters.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

No the media hates the Yanks. They love to report any problems they have and make them seem bigger then they are. Their pitching has been fine, but USA Today, SI, ESPN, etc all make it appear otherwise. Anyone who pays attention to the media is a fool.

I'm not a fan of the Yanks (obviously) but that crap from the media is really, really getting annoying. They have Mussina having a Cy-Young type season, they have Randy Johnson pitching pretty good for the last month or so and both Jaret Wright and Chein-Mein Wang have pitched VERY well as of late. The only "problem" they have is that they haven't found a consistent fifth starter, then again who really has? Their bullpen has been lights out except for Farnsworth and he is also pitched well as of late. The Yankees pitching is fine.

[Mavrik28]

I'm not a fan of the Yanks (obviously) but that crap from the media is really, really getting annoying. They have Mussina having a Cy-Young type season, they have Randy Johnson pitching pretty good for the last month or so and both Jaret Wright and Chein-Mein Wang have pitched VERY well as of late. The only "problem" they have is that they haven't found a consistent fifth starter, then again who really has? Their bullpen has been lights out except for Farnsworth and he is also pitched well as of late. The Yankees pitching is fine.

I agree. The Yankees staff has been a bright spot for them and I for one am very happy.

[Vinnie4]

Do you have ADD? Try to focus here. What does AJ Burnett have to do with the Yankees?

BTW, the Yankee pitching "woes" is the most overstated problem in baseball. They are a top 10 pitching team that just needs the media to make excuses for them so they look like world beaters.
This is about equal to Boston fans crying that the Yankees payroll is too high.

[Vinnie4]

Hey fenwayp, Boston won last night. So why haven't you posted about how dominant Boston is, and how they're gonna run away with the division?

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Go Oakland!

[Therman Merman]

Show 'em what's up George!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/joemisery/BigStein.jpg

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Wow, that was quick. The Yankees are only 0.5 back after today.

[Therman Merman]

Congrats to Mariano on his 400th career save!

[Hardcore Legend]

Not only that, but it looks like the Wild Card may just come from the East yet again.

[Mavrik28]

Ill tell who is really slumping, aside from batting average is Derek Jeter... and he pulls in like 20 mil.... but theyd never boo him.

So the 3 rbi's he had yesterday and the solo shot today means he's slumping?

[Mavrik28]

Sure is quiet in here, where is robertbee and all the other Red Sox lovers?

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Not only that, but it looks like the Wild Card may just come from the East yet again.

The White Sox pitching is just not the same. If they can move one of their stiffs (Garcia/Vazquez) and move McCarthy into the rotation, I still think they get in. I still have a feeling that the Red Sox and Yankees won't both get in though.

[Therman Merman]

Sure is quiet in here, where is robertbee and all the other Red Sox lovers?I was wondering the same thing yesterday. I checked RB out and he hasn't posted since the end of June. Hope everything is okay with him. Toight is still around, but is MIA in this thread.

[Reagz]

1/2 game out of first, Yankees sweep the White Sox, Red Sox lose again to the A's ..... Ahhhhhh, what a weekend!

Go Yanks!

[Mavrik28]

The White Sox pitching is just not the same. If they can move one of their stiffs (Garcia/Vazquez) and move McCarthy into the rotation, I still think they get in. I still have a feeling that the Red Sox and Yankees won't both get in though.

You forgot Garland.

[Mavrik28]

Going by his season averages, yes.

Ah, I see what your saying.

[Vinnie4]

The White Sox pitching is just not the same. If they can move one of their stiffs (Garcia/Vazquez) and move McCarthy into the rotation, I still think they get in. I still have a feeling that the Red Sox and Yankees won't both get in though.
I agree. The White Sox need to make a pitching move if they want to keep the pace. Otherwise the Blue Jays and Yankees will advance from the East.

[orionquest]

Sure is quiet in here, where is robertbee and all the other Red Sox lovers?

Don't worry Mavrik, we haven't all run away. But we're licking our wounds, that's for sure. :(

One week passes and the entire AL outlook changes. In spite of the beating my Sox took, it's why I love this game so much.

[Vinnie4]

Don't worry Mavrik, we haven't all run away. But we're licking our wounds, that's for sure. :(

One week passes and the entire AL outlook changes. In spite of the beating my Sox took, it's why I love this game so much.
Very true. Things can change quickly. Baseball is a game of streaks, and alot can happen between now and October.

[Mark Weber]

The White Sox pitching is just not the same. If they can move one of their stiffs (Garcia/Vazquez) and move McCarthy into the rotation, I still think they get in. I still have a feeling that the Red Sox and Yankees won't both get in though.

I totally agree with you here VC - I think McCarthy will be a tremendous starter when he finally gets a spot in their rotation.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Watching the Yankees surge like this is no fun. The AL East race is over.

:(

[SmartassBoiler]

I totally agree with you here VC - I think McCarthy will be a tremendous starter when he finally gets a spot in their rotation.

Our whole rotation is pitching terribly right now and we're relying on our offense to win. Buehrle is struggling, but he goes through a stretch like this every year and then starts rolling again. Contreras has been pitching better of late and has shaken the DL rust off. Garland has actually been pitching well over the past month.

I'm convinced Garcia is hurt. He's lost his great stuff and can't get good hitters out like he was doing last year. His pitches don't move much and hitters are feasting off him right now. He just turned 30, so his age can't be the reason. He actually wasn't right at the start of the season, then was pitching fairly well for a while, then he's gone downhill again.

Vazquez is a bad pitcher. He has great stuff, but he consistently makes terrible pitches in big spots and just doesn't seem to mentally have it more times than not. At the beginning of the season I thought Cooper would be able to turn him around like Contreras, but that hasn't happened, and at this point I don't think it will. He is what he is and needs to be pitching in the NL without any pressure on him.

I hope the White Sox abandon their CF upgrade plan and fix their pitching. I think a simple move of dealing Vazquez/Garcia for a quality reliever and moving McCarthy to the rotation will strengthen the team as a whole.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Wow, Vernon Wells REALLY wants a new contract.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Our whole rotation is pitching terribly right now and we're relying on our offense to win. Buehrle is struggling, but he goes through a stretch like this every year and then starts rolling again. Contreras has been pitching better of late and has shaken the DL rust off. Garland has actually been pitching well over the past month.

I'm convinced Garcia is hurt. He's lost his great stuff and can't get good hitters out like he was doing last year. His pitches don't move much and hitters are feasting off him right now. He just turned 30, so his age can't be the reason. He actually wasn't right at the start of the season, then was pitching fairly well for a while, then he's gone downhill again.

Vazquez is a bad pitcher. He has great stuff, but he consistently makes terrible pitches in big spots and just doesn't seem to mentally have it more times than not. At the beginning of the season I thought Cooper would be able to turn him around like Contreras, but that hasn't happened, and at this point I don't think it will. He is what he is and needs to be pitching in the NL without any pressure on him.

I hope the White Sox abandon their CF upgrade plan and fix their pitching. I think a simple move of dealing Vazquez/Garcia for a quality reliever and moving McCarthy to the rotation will strengthen the team as a whole.

Any chance the Whitesox want Josh Beckett? he has great velocity and a great curveball but the guy has no clue how to pitch.

[Hardcore Legend]

Why doesn't Mark just change this to the AL East trash talking thread?

[Yukoner]

You still wouldn't be invited, HCL. :)

[Hardcore Legend]

You do realize that 'HCL' makes as much sense as me abbreviating your name YKR, right?

[SmartassBoiler]

Any chance the Whitesox want Josh Beckett? he has great velocity and a great curveball but the guy has no clue how to pitch.

Sure, we'll give ya Vazquez and Politte. :D

[Yukoner]

You do realize that 'HCL' makes as much sense as me abbreviating your name YKR, right?

Ah, so you want to do the pedantic thing, do you? Look up "hardcore" in the dictionary. You won't find it as you use it. It's two words. Hence, I'm right, and you're wrong.

Unless you mean you are a road base legend. From now on, I'll just call you RBL.

Like that better?

[Yukoner]

I need a nap. It's hard work being smarter than everyone else in the room.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Sure, we'll give ya Vazquez and Politte. :D

no thanks... dont want crap in return. You get Beckett... send those 2 guys or prospects to another team and the Redsox get pitchers (not throwers) from that other team involved:D

[Hardcore Legend]

Ah, so you want to do the pedantic thing, do you? Look up "hardcore" in the dictionary. You won't find it as you use it. It's two words. Hence, I'm right, and you're wrong.

Unless you mean you are a road base legend. From now on, I'll just call you RBL.

Like that better?

Canadians are funny. They try to be proper about spelling like the British, but sometimes pretend to be 'hip' like Americans.

I can see your true colours, Yo!

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/hardcore

You know what gave you away? The way you smoke your cigarettes.

[Mark Weber]

OUCH stat of the day. Josh Beckett had never allowed more than 16 homers in a season (granted he's been hurt a lot and a regular season for him has never topped 200 innings) until 2006, when he's given up a ML-leading 27 home runs...

[Yukoner]

See, you're still wrong.

Since you've used it to describe what kind of legend you are, it has to be hyphenated.

It'd go something like this:

You're a hard-core tool, Hard-core Legend.

[Mark Weber]

Do HCL and YKR have any thoughts on the Yankees/Red Sox race/rivalry? :)

[Hardcore Legend]

See, you're still wrong.

Since you've used it to describe what kind of legend you are, it has to be hyphenated.

It'd go something like this:

You're a hard-core tool, Hard-core Legend.

Did you hurt yourself making that stretch? How does it feel realizing you aren't as smart as you think you are?

[ToightLikeATiger]

OUCH stat of the day. Josh Beckett had never allowed more than 16 homers in a season (granted he's been hurt a lot and a regular season for him has never topped 200 innings) until 2006, when he's given up a ML-leading 27 home runs...

Reason being is because he sucks as a pitcher. He is a pure thrower. And so far he has shown no willingness to learn. He should be picker Schillings brain every day until he improves.

But no... he thinks his 96mph fastball down the middle and belt high is enough. Sorry to say but in the AL that doesnt cut it. Also his curveball is nasty but does nothing when behind in the count and you cant throw it for strikes.

AL hitters are far better then NL. They are more patient and more dangerous. Beckett will never succeed in the AL until he learns how to pitch.

Fastball and Curveball are fine to have. but he needs to learn a ball that sinks and gets ground balls (which count as outs just as good as strikeouts) he should learn a cutter and a splitter.

but until he learns that what he is now isnt enough he doesnt cut the mustard.

[Hardcore Legend]

Do HCL and YKR have any thoughts on the Yankees/Red Sox race/rivalry? :)

Yeah..I have one thought on the matter at this time.

What caused ARod to go Chucky Knoblauch tonight? Nothing like having last years MVP be removed from the game.

[TastySweetNutz]

Reason being is because he sucks as a pitcher. He is a pure thrower. And so far he has shown no willingness to learn. He should be picker Schillings brain every day until he improves.

But no... he thinks his 96mph fastball down the middle and belt high is enough. Sorry to say but in the AL that doesnt cut it. Also his curveball is nasty but does nothing when behind in the count and you cant throw it for strikes.

AL hitters are far better then NL. They are more patient and more dangerous. Beckett will never succeed in the AL until he learns how to pitch.

Fastball and Curveball are fine to have. but he needs to learn a ball that sinks and gets ground balls (which count as outs just as good as strikeouts) he should learn a cutter and a splitter.

but until he learns that what he is now isnt enough he doesnt cut the mustard.
Wow have things changed. I remember earlier in the year when he was like 7-1 and you and another Sox fan in particular were praising the graces of Beckett. Spouting how him and Schilling were an upstoppable duo and all that cheese. Now you want him out of Boston because he "sucks". And you have the nerve to ride Yanks fans for riding A-Rod when you're doing the same thing to Beckett. And you accused Weber of being a bandwagon fan? That Beckett wagon is getting mighty empty now.

[TastySweetNutz]

Yeah..I have one thought on the matter at this time.

What caused ARod to go Chucky Knoblauch tonight? Nothing like having last years MVP be removed from the game.
You said it. Lucky to get that win tonight with all those errors. Now only if Keith Olderman's mom was in the stands.

[Mavrik28]

Beckett is afraid to throw his curve, its what causes the blisters. He is struggling bad, but nobody thought he'd struggle this bad. I figured he'd be as bad as Vazquez was for the Yanks, instead he's Kevin Brown bad.

A-Rod's groin may in fact be bugging him. Have to wait and see. A win is a win, but Torre can't keep going to MO. Farns needs to step his crap up so MO doesn't have to pitch so much. 2 innings yesterday, 1 more today. And knowing Torre he'll use him tomorrow if need be.

[fenwayp]

Beckett is afraid to throw his curve, its what causes the blisters. He is struggling bad, but nobody thought he'd struggle this bad. I figured he'd be as bad as Vazquez was for the Yanks, instead he's Kevin Brown bad.

Actually, he's more like Randy Johnson :eek: bad...their numbers are almost identical and The Overpaid Unit makes $15.7 Million while Beckett costs the Red Sox $4.3 Million.

[fenwayp]

By the way, Mark...am I EVER going to get my Bruins Bourque ???

[Yukoner]

Did you hurt yourself making that stretch? How does it feel realizing you aren't as smart as you think you are?

I'd hardly call grade 10 English lessons a stretch, RBL. And I'll let you know when my intelligence is outpaced by my confidence. It hasn't happened yet, and given your comebacks, probably won't happen soon.



As for the Yankees-Red Sox, I'd say that this race is not going to be much of one unless the Red Sox can get some pitching, fast. They'll be fighting with the Jays to get that pitching, however.

[Hardcore Legend]

I'd hardly call grade 10 English lessons a stretch, RBL. And I'll let you know when my intelligence is outpaced by my confidence. It hasn't happened yet, and given your comebacks, probably won't happen soon.


Limited vocabulary isn't something to be ashamed of. You go ahead and own it.

And seeing as you gone about doing this:

Unless you mean you are a road base legend. From now on, I'll just call you RBL.

You'd be wrong. If I were intending on that being the meaning, you choosing to use a different word for it would be inaccurate.

Would you prefer me to call you Selkirker?