OFFICIAL Yankees vs. Red Sox trash talking thread

[Bronx Bombers]

how did that fued end Mark? oh yeah.... Hulkamania ran wild on him. why? cause after that it wasnt over
But it is for Boston.

[Mark Weber]

right now as much as i like David Ortiz i think Manny Ramirez is tied with him in the MVP race. his numbers are great, he protects Ortiz, he has noone protecting him in the #5 hole and his defense has been very good this year.

I think Ortiz and Ramirez should be co-mvp's. they are a package of greatness.

Jermaine Dye would be 3rd on my list for mvp. Jeter 4th and Thome 5th.

Where's Hafner?

[Mark Weber]

i look at things in a bigger picture. this isnt the last season in redsox history. when building for the future and trying to compete your gonna hit bumps. this is a big bump. i guess im in the minority as a Redsox fan when it comes to the rebuilding process. Im excited to see these young guys and want to see them with the team. I still want the team to win but i want to be able to work these young guys in too.

If Boston is "rebuilding" why did they trade these guys this season?

22-year-old SS Hanley Ramirez (hitting .268 with 11 HR, 88 runs & 39 steals for the Marlins.)

22-year-old RHP Anibal Sanchez (4-2 with a 3.70 ERA in nine starts for the Marlins.)

22-year-old 3B Andy Marte (hit .322 with 15 HR and 46 RBI in 357 at-bats with Triple-A Buffao; now with the Indians.)

22-year-old RP Jesus Delgado (2-4 with a 2.58 ERA for the Class A Jupiter Hammerheads.)

22-year-old RP Harvey Garcia (0-7 with 19 saves and a 2.92 ERA for the Class A Jupiter Hammerheads.)

23-year-old RP Cla Meredith (2-1 with a 1.07 ERA in 25 appearances for the Padres.)

26-year-old C Kelly Shoppach (hitting .250 with 3 HR and 12 RBI in 72 at-bats for the Indians.)

[Mark Weber]

he has a hamstring pull. nothing serious but with the wear and tear the last 5 games they pulled him as a precaution

Maybe he'll get some DH at-bats this week? Oh wait...

[Bronx Bombers]

right now as much as i like David Ortiz i think Manny Ramirez is tied with him in the MVP race. his numbers are great, he protects Ortiz, he has noone protecting him in the #5 hole and his defense has been very good this year.

I think Ortiz and Ramirez should be co-mvp's. they are a package of greatness.

Jermaine Dye would be 3rd on my list for mvp. Jeter 4th and Thome 5th.

Maybe tied behind Jeter, just like their behind Yankees.

[mike99420]

Maybe he'll get some DH at-bats this week? Oh wait...
LOL mark you hit it on the head. thats not going to happen anytime soon!!! ortiz is a great hitter, but situations like this would kill me if he was a yankee. at least giambi is somewhat servicable in the field.

[SmartassBoiler]

LOL mark you hit it on the head. thats not going to happen anytime soon!!! ortiz is a great hitter, but situations like this would kill me if he was a yankee. at least giambi is somewhat servicable in the field.

I wouldn't call 7 errors in 56 games at 1B "serviceable". That's more along the lines of "bad".

[mike99420]

I wouldn't call 7 errors in 56 games at 1B "serviceable". That's more along the lines of "bad".
oh i know he is bad, but he makes some pretty good scoop catches and is nowhere as bad as ortiz in the field.

[Bronx Bombers]

I wouldn't call 7 errors in 56 games at 1B "serviceable". That's more along the lines of "bad".


Id rather have him at 1B and Bernie DH than Giambi DH and Wilson 1B.

[orionquest]

LOL mark you hit it on the head. thats not going to happen anytime soon!!! ortiz is a great hitter, but situations like this would kill me if he was a yankee. at least giambi is somewhat servicable in the field.

Oh, do we really have to start the "Ortiz can't field and will always be a disaster at first base" silliness again?

[Bronx Bombers]

Oh, do we really have to start the "Ortiz can't field and will always be a disaster at first base" silliness again?


Because of his shoty fielding it cost him last years and this years MVP award.

[ComradeFlyer]

BB, how old are you?

[Bronx Bombers]

BB, how old are you?
Why do you want to know?

[Mark Weber]

Oh, do we really have to start the "Ortiz can't field and will always be a disaster at first base" silliness again?

I'm just saying that a gimpy Manny might still be able to hit (with Boston's season teetering on the brink) if Boston considered playing Ortiz at 1B a legitimate posibility.

[ComradeFlyer]

Why do you want to know?

because other yankees fans make good critical comments of the red sox, and then you offer "the red sox are done, hahaha" i'm curious because that seems like the same mentality as half of my students.

[orionquest]

I'm just saying that a gimpy Manny might still be able to hit (with Boston's season teetering on the brink) if Boston considered playing Ortiz at 1B a legitimate posibility.

Oh, I know that, Mark. And I'm saying that if he's at that point, Tito isn't above putting Manny on as DH, Papi at first and Youk in left field. And that he's no greater liability at first base than Giambi is. And that he is kept as DH most of the time because Youkilis is a very good first baseman, where Ortiz is adequate.

But we've gone through all this before. And I'm cranky dammit! :( I should be in Anaheim as I type this, but circumstances prevent it.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Redsox call up Dustin Pedroia to replace Alex Gonzalez on the roster. hopefully the starts atleast a couple times while up.

[Mark Weber]

While I won't defend Giambi's cast-iron glove at first base, calling Ortiz "adequate" at 1B is a real stretch. He was the second-worstfielding 1B in all of baseball last year (saved from true infamy by D'Backs prospect Conor Jackson).

This from ESPN's "Page 2"

http://espn.go.com/i/page2/photos/060822/060822_obit.jpg

[Tanner2126]

hahah...that is great!

[orionquest]

"And I'm Freeeeee...... Freeee Faaaaaallin'!" - thank you Tom Petty.

Mark, we've been around the block about Ortiz's fielding. I won't go there, since it's pretty moot at this point.

After last night... where to begin? Balls falling between players. Dan Shaunessey and Manny's hamstring-gate? Mirabelli-Kapler-Pedroia batting 7-8-9. 1-12 with RISP. It's a long way from the '03 and '04 lineups.

I woke up this morning and longed for Kevin Millar in a Red Sox uniform. It's going to be a long September.

[ComradeFlyer]

go to you tube and check out big papi's erectile dysfunction commercial. now i'm all freaked out realizing his wang doesn't work.

[Bronx Bombers]

Im in HS

[Paul755]

go to you tube and check out big papi's erectile dysfunction commercial. now i'm all freaked out realizing his wang doesn't work.

Lol...really I can't stop laughing at that last line.....bravo Ryan...bravo.

[supertim]

Lol...really I can't stop laughing at that last line.....bravo Ryan...bravo.


Looks as if Ortiz has a broken bat:eek:

Either that, or he needs to cork it - Giggity!!!:D

[SharpyDave]

Where's Hafner?He's not considered because his team is out of the playoff picture.;)

[ComradeFlyer]

Lol...really I can't stop laughing at that last line.....bravo Ryan...bravo.
anything for you paul.

chekc it out if you haven't already. poor big papi and problems with his lil papi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chKa0F6V1wk

[Bronx Bombers]

Wow i didnt know Shrek had his own language;)

[rocketsan22]

if Boston considered playing Ortiz at 1B a legitimate posibility.

And they could lobby to have him wear #42 and get really fat just like Mo Vau...nevermind...

[Bronx Bombers]

lol

[Bronx Bombers]

Mussina headed to DL
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2559164

[SharpyDave]

what's with the fans directly behind home plate? they aren't even watching the game.

[ToightLikeATiger]

what's with the fans directly behind home plate? they aren't even watching the game.

those people arent usually fans. they are there to look importants and sometimes on business. real fans rarely get behind home plate seats.

corporate employees get those good seats. yet they are always on the cell phone or talking to others instead of watching the game

[SharpyDave]

^ it was really bad, not one or two pitches but innings at a time. always happens, the rich get the free tickets and the die hards sit up above.

[Therman Merman]

The empty suits have ruined the atmosphere at Yankee Stadium for me. I remember sitting in the bleachers before it was "cool". When you sat in the bleachers because it was all you could afford. I'm an original "bleacher creature" dammit! I was out there during the lean years. Now it's a damn joke.

[Hardcore Legend]

Does everyone buy this story?

Report: Papi hospitalized for irregular heartbeat

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Boston Red Sox designated hitter David Ortiz confirmed to the Boston Herald on Thursday that he was hospitalized last weekend for an irregular heartbeat.

Ortiz told the Herald he began experiencing a rapid heartbeat Friday night after the Red Sox were swept by the New York Yankees in a doubleheader at Fenway Park. Although Ortiz played Saturday, the problem persisted and the Red Sox medical staff advised him to visit Massachusetts General Hospital, where he was held overnight for observation.

Ortiz, who is hitting .286 and leads the majors with 46 homers and 120 RBI this season, didn't miss any time during the Yankees series.

[orionquest]

Does everyone buy this story?

I don't understand your inquiry. What other reason do you think he may have been in the hosptial? Would other players not get the benefit of the doubt? Would players of other teams? Players of other stature?

Just curious, really.

[Hardcore Legend]

I don't understand your inquiry. What other reason do you think he may have been in the hosptial? Would other players not get the benefit of the doubt? Would players of other teams? Players of other stature?

Just curious, really.

It seems almost, Ruthian, to days after getting pummelled say 'well, our best player had to go to the hospital during the series'. I'm not saying that this isn't a legit medical problem and that the Red Sox are purposely releasing this info later...but if it were politics, it would reek of Karl Rove.

[orionquest]

It seems almost, Ruthian, to days after getting pummelled say 'well, our best player had to go to the hospital during the series'. I'm not saying that this isn't a legit medical problem and that the Red Sox are purposely releasing this info later...but if it were politics, it would reek of Karl Rove.

I still don't get it.

You think this is spin? Some sort of excuse? This was a serious health matter, not the baseball equivalent of "The dog ate my homework."

I don't see how this helps anyone. The Sox got their butts kicked because they pitched poorly and didn't hit well as a team. Ortiz having a medical scare changes nothing. Had they wanted to use it as an excuse, they would have released the information earlier.

Besides, can you imagine the insane media circus that would have erupted had this been reported with the national sports media hunkered down in Boston during the series? The unwarranted attention and questioning and harrassment that Ortiz and his family would have felt might have far more to do with it than some Yankees fan's conspiracy theory.

[Mark Weber]

I'm glad doctors could confirm that Ortiz had a heart last weekend. I wasn't sure. :)

[orionquest]

I'm glad doctors could confirm that Ortiz had a heart last weekend. I wasn't sure. :)

Oh, man, that's low.

It wasn't his heart I worried about. His eyes and hands, that's another story.

[fenwayp]

Why would Ortiz make up a story about being admitted to a hospital for an irregular heartbeat ? It is idiotic to even imply that he would be making it up...oh...hardcore legend...it all makes sense now...

I love how every Yankee fan has basically written the Red Sox off this season.
Maybe they still don't remember the carnage that was the 2004 ALCS...never over until it's over...

[Mark Weber]

This from the guy who wrote the Yankees off at the All-Star break last year? Or didn't Boston's sputtering finish and collapse at home in the final weekend last season change your perspective on things? :)

[fenwayp]

I'm glad doctors could confirm that Ortiz had a heart last weekend. I wasn't sure. :)

Ortiz was 6-20 (0.300) with 2 doubles, 2 HRs and 4 RBI last weekend against the Yankees. He actually played very well.

Just like a Yankee fan to make light of a potentially serious medical condition.
Thanks for the concern :rolleyes:

[fenwayp]

This from the guy who wrote the Yankees off at the All-Star break last year? Or didn't Boston's sputtering finish and collapse at home in the final weekend last season change your perspective on things? :)

Say what you want about me, but it is clear that most Yankee fans are acting like the season is over for the Red Sox already. All I'm saying is there's still quite a bit of time left in the season, and a 5 1/2 game lead isn't all that much...

[fenwayp]

Red Sox are done get over theres always Patriots and next season.

Case in point...

[Hardcore Legend]

Serious medical condition says who?

Smells like a 'drop a hint to a writer' and then let it grow.

No one wants to see David Ortiz sick or hurt and I'm glad he is healthy. However, it was such a SERIOUS MEDICAL CONDITION that he was able to play 5 games in 4 days? Wow, that really says something about the Designated Hitter.

[Hardcore Legend]

Say what you want about me, but it is clear that most Yankee fans are acting like the season is over for the Red Sox already.

Nice spin there, doctor. You made a bold prediction, were wrong, and now are trying to point at others and say 'see, you all did it too'.

Sorry, no dice.

[fenwayp]

Nice spin there, doctor. You made a bold prediction, were wrong, and now are trying to point at others and say 'see, you all did it too'.

Sorry, no dice.

I fully admit that my prediction was WAY OFF...

I am simply pointing out that most yankee fans right now feel they have the Red Sox put away for the year. I think there is too much time left in the season to write off the Red Sox. Plain and simple.

I am not predicting the Red Sox will come back and take over 1st place, or even make the wildcard. It is very possible that they will not.

As for Ortiz, anytime ANYONE has a rapid or irregular heartbeat, it MOST DEFINITELY is a serious medical issue. The team doctors recommended that he get admitted and checked out for precautionary reasons, and both you and Mark have made light of it. I'm not saying his career is over or something, just that it is a serious issue.

I know people personally who were admitted to the hospital for the same reason and ended up in a casket, so don't make light of it.

[Hardcore Legend]

As for Ortiz, anytime ANYONE has a rapid or irregular heartbeat, it MOST DEFINITELY is a serious medical issue. The team doctors recommended that he get admitted and checked out for precautionary reasons, and both you and Mark have made light of it. I'm not saying his career is over or something, just that it is a serious issue.

I know people personally who were admitted to the hospital for the same reason and ended up in a casket, so don't make light of it.

If it was that serious, how come he didn't miss a single game that weekend?

[fenwayp]

If it was that serious, how come he didn't miss a single game that weekend?

My point is that it CAN BE a very serious issue, but apparently this was a case where he took the cautious road, had it checked out, and was cleared to play for whatever reason. You were insinuating that he somehow concocted the story, which is ridiculous. Why would anyone make up a story like that ?

[fenwayp]

Nice spin there, doctor.

How did you know that I'm a doctor ? :eek: :D

[Hardcore Legend]

Why would anyone make up a story like that ?

Same reason the 'ARod is hurt' stories came out. Protect the hero's image.

[fenwayp]

Same reason the 'ARod is hurt' stories came out. Protect the hero's image.

What about Ortiz's image needs to be "protected" ?? Dude is having another MVP-like season, and did pretty well in that series. I just don't get your point, if there is one. Why not take it at face value ?:rolleyes:

[Hardcore Legend]

What about Ortiz's image needs to be "protected" ?? Dude is having another MVP-like season, and did pretty well in that series. I just don't get your point, if there is one. Why not take it at face value ?:rolleyes:

It's pretty obvious you don't get my point as I've spelled it out pretty clear. Could be a real story, could be not. If this were in the political arena, it's called a 'calculated leak'. Drop a story you want out there and make it appear the media had to dig it out of you, so that it looks like the team/player aren't making excuses. Manny's got his knee, Ortiz his heart.

"Why, how were we supposed to beat the Yankees with our best two players having SERIOUS MEDICAL PROBLEMS!?!?!"

Spin.

[Mark Weber]

Ortiz was 6-20 (0.300) with 2 doubles, 2 HRs and 4 RBI last weekend against the Yankees. He actually played very well.

Just like a Yankee fan to make light of a potentially serious medical condition.
Thanks for the concern :rolleyes:

Yes, I suppose it was insensitive of me to make light of Big Papi in the TRASH TALKING THREAD. If 4 RBI's is "playing very well" over a critical five-game set, then Johnny Damon had a hell of a series in the opener... :)

[Hardcore Legend]

Apparently Big Papi did go to the hospital.....because he was too stressed out about the Yankees series and forgot to drink water.

[Therman Merman]

Ya think the pecker pills could have caused his irregular heartbeat? ;)

[SharpyDave]

^ lol

[Tanner2126]

So when is A-Rod gonna quit baseball and drive trucks for Pepsi??? im sure its on his mind

[fenwayp]

Nice to see the Yankees getting slapped around yet again... :D

[Therman Merman]

Nice to see the Yankees getting slapped around yet again... :DYeah, just like the Sox got slapped around and around and around and around and around last weekend. (In case you weren't counting, that was 5 arounds.)

[Tanner2126]

Nice to see the Yankees getting slapped around yet again... :D

Nice to see Boston still getting slapped around.

[fenwayp]

Yet the Yankees still allow the Red Sox to hang around. Yankees can't put the Red Sox away even after a 5 game sweep...Sox can cut the lead to 4 1/2 games with a win tonight...

[Therman Merman]

Care to make any more predictions, genius?

[fenwayp]

Nope. Just making an observation. You'd think that after a 5 game sweep that the Yankees would just run away with the division.

[Mark Weber]

The Yankees (particularly their pitching staff) look EXHAUSTED right now. I think they lost their wind running laps around the bases last weekend in Boston. :)

[Hardcore Legend]

Another crushing defeat for the Red Sox. Are they expecting the Yankees to lose EVERY game from here on out?

[fenwayp]

It's a good thing for the Yankees that Timlin SUCKS as badly as he does...

[Mark Weber]

Wells is looking sharp lately and I know he cleared waivers. It's possible Boston could get a decent prospect for him for a team on the verge (San Diego maybe?)

[Tanner2126]

boston gets swept again...SLAP SLAP SLAP SLAP SLAP SLAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Holy crap, the Blue Jays have a legitimate shot of finishing second this year in the AL East. I know it sounds lame but that would be huge for the team.

As for the Red Sox, they are just in a sorry state right now. I just looked over some of Weber's posts in this thread and MAN, have they made some HORRIBLE trades in the last year or so.

[Bronx Bombers]

Glad they get their day off. What was it 21 games in 20 days?

[BlakChamber]

Yankees–Red Sox Rivalry Running Dangerously Low On Storylines (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/52032)

Brilliant! :D

[Thoughtful]

How many times have they been swept this year? 100? They are truly sad and truly pathetic.

[Bronx Bombers]

Swept by Seattle, swept by the Yankees, swept by the Royals...they are truly sad and truly pathetic.


Why would you put Yankees in a catagory with Seattle and Kansas City? They are much better.

[Thoughtful]

I didn't mean to lump the Yankees in with the likes of the Royals and the Mariners. Clearly the Yankees are much better. The post was just not worded well.

[orionquest]

Wells is looking sharp lately and I know he cleared waivers. It's possible Boston could get a decent prospect for him for a team on the verge (San Diego maybe?)

Yeah, I think it's going to happen. I wouldn't be surprised if they move both Wells and Loretta now.

[RedWingsCuj031]

Looks like the sox lost again! Thats 7 games up for the Yanks. Sox are all done, GO YANKS!!!

[Tanner2126]

I dont know why people think its over for boston. Yankees and Boston still have 4 games to play against each other in Sept. Its not over yet!

[ToightLikeATiger]

Big Papi is probably done for the year. he was sent home for an irregular heartbeat. without Manny, Ortiz, Varitek and Nixon its hard to win ballgames. Lester is now on the DL so they have 1 less pitcher. Wakefield and Clement arent too close to returning.

Boston just got the injury bug at the wrong time. They have far more injuries then the Yankees ever did and they had the majority of them after the trade deadline. So they couldnt make quality moves to replace.

Would have been nice to see both teams at full strength and battle it out for the AL East. i think it would have been and excellent race that went down to the wire.

will be interesting to see how the Redsox players that are left respond. its defiently a good time to see what the young guys on the team can do.

[RaiderFan18]

Ortiz, done for year?????!!!

[BurningSoul]

Ortiz, done for year?????!!!

maybe if it turns out to be an Eddie Curry type condition. Hopefully not.

[NYHoustonman]

Either way, these next couple games are going to be hell unless the starters do extremely well (starting with Beckett tonight)... No Ortiz, and no Manny supposedly until the team gets back to Boston = very little offense.

[orionquest]

The current state of the Red Sox, best summed up by Eric Wilbur of the Globe:

"David Ortiz has joined the ever-growing list of injured Red Sox, now including Jason Varitek, [Manny] Ramirez, Tim Wakefield, Matt Clement, Wily Mo Pena, Jon Lester, and Trot Nixon. Francona is spitting blood, and Ortiz is playing with a rapid heart. And the more everybody involved says it can't get any worse, it inevitably does as every day passes.

But it really can't get any worse now. Can it?

It's a question we dare not want to answer."

Wow. Tough year. And to think three months ago I was consoling my Yankee-fan friends about Matsui and Sheffield.

[Bronx Bombers]

Wow Ortiz out for year, It kinda sucks cause the rivalry is pretty much dead this year...

[Makaveli_tha_don]

what happened to Francona, spitting blood?

[NYHoustonman]

what happened to Francona, spitting blood?

He has a blood condition and apparently bit his cheek quite hard.

Concerning the Sox, in my mind they're done now unless they somehow win one or two in Oakland. Manny, Pena, and Papi are all back in Boston, and Wells is being shopped around... It would take one hell of a turnaround. Mathematically they're obviously still in it but it's a long shot.

[orionquest]

Concerning the Sox, in my mind they're done now unless they somehow win one or two in Oakland. Manny, Pena, and Papi are all back in Boston, and Wells is being shopped around... It would take one hell of a turnaround. Mathematically they're obviously still in it but it's a long shot.

Oh, it's over. I'm now focusing on what they can be, not what they are right now. The rivalry just has to take a back seat this year. I'm confident that both teams will be right back in place next year. The only difference may be if the Yankees are able to get past the killer pitching in the Central division in the playoffs and win it all. With their lineup, it's certainly possible.

Right now, the Sox are faced with the equivalent of the Yankees having Matsui, Sheffield, Jeter, Giambi, Posada, Proctor and ARod on the DL or injured on a noteworthy level. As good as they are (and I'm giving them props... they're good) it's just too tough a blow for any team to overcome. A future-Hall-of-Famer like Rivera wouldn't do them any good if there were no games to save.

I'm confident that if every Sox player on the DL were healthy, we'd have a race on our hands, even after the Boston Massacre II. But right now, the Sox are fielding a bad National League team out there. Youkilis, Loretta, Lowell and Crisp can't compete.

[SharpyDave]

This is what it sounds like when doves cry.

[Therman Merman]

OUCH! 3 sweeps in 2 weeks?!?

[Bronx Bombers]

If Yankees win then Boston is 9 games down!!

[Therman Merman]

I can't believe Don Slaught is back catching for the Yankees again.:p

[orionquest]

If Yankees win then Boston is 9 games down!!

At this point they're reeling so much I'm expecting the Blue Jays to take 2nd place shortly. Now, Coco crisp is injured, too. I'm wondering if Lowell, Loretta and Youkilis have a pool for which one of them goes down next.

So, for the record, the Red Sox starting catcher, shortstop, designated hitter and entire outfield are injured. This has become ridiculous.

[Therman Merman]

It's a shame really. Everytime this year I get amped up for the stretch drive and the start of the NFL season. However this year, between the Red Sox collapse and the Jets looking like they will have a top 5 pick again, I'm kinda bored. I've been watching sports for a long time, and I've never seen a team get hit with injuries like the Sox have been hit this year. Forget about the fact that it has primarily happened since after the all-star break.

Orion, I respect your opinion, and I know you will give me a straight answer. So I ask you, are you getting tired of Manny and his mundane act? It's amazing to me that my fellow Yankees fans boo A-Rod who hussles on every play and gives every at-bat his best effort. (Even if he hurts himself by trying to much) Yet Red Sox fans cheer for Manny as if he is infalable, despite checking out on a consistent basis. I don't get it.

[Therman Merman]

WOW! What a play by Cano! And a nice job by Guiel as well! Casey crushed him.

[Bronx Bombers]

WOW! What a play by Cano! And a nice job by Guiel as well! Casey crushed him.
Another reason why Cano's in MLB 17.

[BurningSoul]

robertbee! paging robertbee! what happened to you?

[ToightLikeATiger]

IOrion, I respect your opinion, and I know you will give me a straight answer. So I ask you, are you getting tired of Manny and his mundane act? It's amazing to me that my fellow Yankees fans boo A-Rod who hussles on every play and gives every at-bat his best effort. (Even if he hurts himself by trying to much) Yet Red Sox fans cheer for Manny as if he is infalable, despite checking out on a consistent basis. I don't get it.

wait one second here.... i know im not Orion but i gotta say something here. What is Manny's act? He has had a knee injury most of this season and has played through it. Its finally caught up to him. In fact when Wily Mo Pena got hurt a few games ago Manny volunteered to play hurt because they didnt have much else. He went out there and tried to play but it hurt him.

Manny's knee injury is legit. He played through it for most of the year when he probably should have been on the DL.

So i dont know what this "act" you are talking about is but there is none.

please know what you are talking about before coming on here and trying to bash a player.

[orionquest]

Orion, I respect your opinion, and I know you will give me a straight answer. So I ask you, are you getting tired of Manny and his mundane act? It's amazing to me that my fellow Yankees fans boo A-Rod who hussles on every play and gives every at-bat his best effort. (Even if he hurts himself by trying to much) Yet Red Sox fans cheer for Manny as if he is infalable, despite checking out on a consistent basis. I don't get it.

Hey TM. I think it's a valid question, but I find myself agreeing with Toight for the most part.

Has Manny shown some bad judgement in the past? Sure. But I really feel that this year his actions have shown that he got the message and really has been flying straight throughout the season. He's injured, and I think he's been playing with a nagging injury for far longer than either he or the team has let on.

I believe that much of the doubt he's received, however, has been valid. Had he not pulled some of his quirkiness in seasons past, nobody would doubt him this year. I feel that the only reason I have a different perspective is that, as a near-obsessed Sox fan, I watch almost every broadcast and read nearly everything I can. But, to a Yankees fan, who follows his team with a similar interest and keeps an eye on the Red Sox, I find it easy to see how such an opinion would develop.

I've always found how both Manny and ARod are perceived as very odd. I never understood the anti-ARod thing, especially last year with the numbers he put up. He's having a bad year (for him) and these things happen. Manny, on the other hand, gets forgiven for his quirks time and again, but mostly because every time we've had it with him, he knocks a 3-run dinger over the monster in a key situation and we suddenly fear losing his precious bat.

Also, I think a large part of how both players get portrayed in the media has to do with their approaches. Rodriguez talks to the press. He analyzes what he's done, tries to improve upon it, and explains it to reporters in a simple and concise manner. It's the latter part, about how he explains what he does, that gets him labeled as an "over-thinker." Funny thing is, Ramirez does the first two things, too. He just acts aloof and goofy around the press, and gets labeled a "space-shot". Be he works very hard, especially at batting, takes lots of extra BP and studies tapes of pitchers more than anyone else on the team.

Both players are talents of the highest order. They are signed to two of the ten highest contracts in baseball. Their statistics alone make them first-round Hall-of-Famers upon retirement. But, I have to wonder, if ARod would act a bit more goofy and fun-loving, and if Manny would take some time to speak candidly with reporters, would much of the criticism fade?

[orionquest]

please know what you are talking about before coming on here and trying to bash a player.

Hey Toight,

As you can read above, you and I are on the same page here. We, as Sox fans, have seen what Manny's done all year and know what the deal is.

I really do think TM was just asking what's going on with him, since he is likely not to have as much information and understanding of the situation that we do. I think that Manny hasn't been portrayed accurately in the national press, and many non-Sox fans certainly have a reason to inquire why we love a guy that seems to get vilified elsewhere.

Unless there's something I missed, I don't think it was bashing; I think it was curiosity.

[orionquest]

robertbee! paging robertbee! what happened to you?

I just hope that RB's head isn't in the same oven that mine was until I found the courage to shut off the gas and look forward to football and hockey season.

This is tough for us. Six of our nine offensive starters are out. Six of freakin' nine. Positionwise, it's like the Yankees only having A-Rod, Cano and Giambi play.

So, I don't think the "trash talking" thread is going to see much of it coming from both sides. No rivalry-in-action this year. Very disappointing all around. But, knowing these teams, their managements, rosters and fan bases, I doubt that next year will be so one-sided.

Hang in there, Red Sox Nation!

[SmartassBoiler]

Sorry to see your team go down like this, Red Sox fans.

[Bronx Bombers]

I hope Boston win or at least Halladay dosent get the win

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

I hope Boston win or at least Halladay dosent get the win

Why, Wang isn't going to win the Cy Young, Santana is. Heck, Santana might win the pitcher's triple crown this year.

[Bronx Bombers]

Chien Ming Cy Wang

[ToightLikeATiger]

. So I ask you, are you getting tired of Manny and his mundane act? Yet Red Sox fans cheer for Manny as if he is infalable, despite checking out on a consistent basis. I don't get it.

this is why Orion i see it as bashing. the only question i see is him asking you if your tired of Manny because of the points TM brings up to bash him.

its a very misinformed post. there is not mundane act going on nor is he checking out. he has a legit injury. he is also close to returning. it just annoys me when someone who clearly doesnt know whats going on comes here and tries to attack a player without correct information. If Manny didnt want to play cause the Redsox are losing then yes id be upset with Manny. But i wont get upset at a guy who finally decides to rest his knee after playing so long with the injury.

Also i find it funny you dont hear anything in the media about Manny volunteering to play injured in place of Wily Mo Pena who was injured the night before. They made a huge deal last year when Manny sat while dinged up instead of playing for an injured Nixon.

btw also a comment about the Arod point of TM's comment. Reason why fans and even his own teammates dont like him is because of his attitude. He acts like he is better then everyone else. His attitude is smug and he rubs teammates and fans the wrong way. Clubhouses were better off in Seattle and Texas when he left. Noone questions his god given ability. But his attitude and inability to perform in the clutch has fans against him.

there are plenty of stories out there about Arod and his basepath comments. unlike many players who get on base and chat it up friendly with people Arod feels the need to mouth off and be unprofessional.

reason Manny isnt hated is because he is a fun loving guy. he gets along great with his teammates and fans. He is a great player and he knows it. But he doesnt act like it. He can have a good time in the clubhouse and keep things loose.

Manny is goofy there is no doubt about it. But that is one of the reasons he is so loveable in Boston. You cant hate a guy like him. Atleast as a Redsox fan i cant.

also ive said this before. Ive disliked Arod long before he joined the Yankees. He has been the same way ever since he came up to the big leagues in Seattle.

true Yankees fans know Arod doesnt belong on that team. He isnt the type of player the Yankees legacy and fans embrace

[Sbells]

Dude let me ask you a serious are you really like 12 - 14 yars old..B/c that is how you are coming off. You need to grow up a little bit...
I also have a strange feeling that you are some old boardie who si using a new name...

Mark can you check into this and see if this tool is an old "Dog" of sorts...

Who's the tool now?

[Lord_Stanley_#89]

This def. not the way I'd like to see the end of the Reg season being played out.

Honestly, part of me feels for the Red Sox and their organization. They are riddled with injuries and have two guys (Papi and Lester) with serious ailments, Lester looking like he may have the worse :(

I'm just hoping Lester doesn't have what everyone is suspecting, Cancer, I hate that disease and it scares me so much.....heres to Lester and his family...

:(

EDIT: This puts the whole rivalry, this thread, and baseball into perspective.

[NYHoustonman]

It really is like some kind of sick joke at this point... Manny goes down with the same knee injury I have, along with half the roster, and the injuries include heart problems and, as if things couldn't possibly get any worse, possible cancer. I just hope the Sox can keep in second (with papi supposedly coming back saturday, it should be easier).

[orionquest]

This puts the whole rivalry, this thread, and baseball into perspective.

Amen to that. And having it come from a Yankees fan sums it all up.

Get well, Jon!

[Therman Merman]

Orion, thank you for answering my question as an adult would. It's the exact reason that I asked you. Good insight as well. I wasn't aware that Manny's knee has been a problem all year. But to elaborate a little, I was reffering more to his whole tenure in Boston and not just this year. Sorry, I should have made that clear. Just wondering if any Sox fans out there have a breaking point with this guy, that's all.

Toight, I wanna like you, I really do. Your passionate about your favorite teams, and I respect that about you. What I will never understand, however, is why whenever anyone has a differing opinion than yours, you immediately accuse them of being ignorant, or uninformed. And you do it in such a condesending manner that makes you come across as, well a jerk. Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, you don't know everything there is to know about sports??? I know you don't care what people on a message board think of you, but is it really that hard to be a little more like Orion? Just askin'

Get Well Soon Jon Lester!

[Bronx Bombers]

If any team playing Boston was smart they would walk Ortiz everytime.

[Mark Weber]

All the best to Jon Lester. Maybe Andres Galarraga (long known as one of the nicest guys to ever wear a ML uniform) will give him a call.

From the Yankee standpoint - it looks like A-Rod may be waking up...

[Bronx Bombers]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2569341

Don't no if this is new or not

[NYHoustonman]

Well, yep, Lester has Lymphoma, and


GUESS WHAT ELSE?



Papelbon just left today's game with one out in the ninth holding his right (pitching) shoulder.:o


Honestly, what else can go wrong? I hate to bring up curses seeing as they dont exist, but this past month has been ridiculous.:mad:

[ogrjmj]

THE CURSE IS BACK!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA.....................

[Bronx Bombers]

Was wondering why Papelbon didnt pitch whole ninth(wasnt watching it on Tv).

[Therman Merman]

From what I read online, he attempted a pickoff move to second, and threw the ball into centerfield and immediately began shaking his pitching hand. He than clutched his shoulder, and was taken out of the game.

When it rains, it pours I guess. Geez.


***Correction- Paplebon threw a pitch after the failed pickoff attempt, and then started shaking his hand. He was then seen in the dugout grabbing his shoulder. Sorry. Trying to piece the info off the net.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

I don't get the whole "woe is me" attitude from Red Sox fans, I mean there are tons of fans of other teams who'd change places with you in a second. Look at the bright side guys, your only 5.5 games out of the wildcard as both the Twins and White Sox are going to lose tonight and you've got a soft Blue Jays team to play for the rest of the weekend.

[chucknorris666]

All these injuries happening is crazy. I wouldnt be surprized if Lowell gets hit by lightning or Lorretta gets eaten by a crocodile next. Seriously I hope Lester gets well soon.

[NYHoustonman]

I don't get the whole "woe is me" attitude from Red Sox fans, I mean there are tons of fans of other teams who'd change places with you in a second. Look at the bright side guys, your only 5.5 games out of the wildcard as both the Twins and White Sox are going to lose tonight and you've got a soft Blue Jays team to play for the rest of the weekend.

I don't get the feeling that making the playoffs would really matter at this point - I'm already waiting for next year. But to say that I, as a Sox fan, shouldn't be complaning, when in the span of about a month and a half the Sox have gone from playing well on both sides of the ball and having a fairly comfortable lead in the AL East to collapsing (a 12 game swing in the standings), and then all these injuries piling up on top of that... It's just a tad annoying. I understand that other teams have had it worse this year, but no other team has gone through this kind of shift this quickly.

[orionquest]

I don't get the whole "woe is me" attitude from Red Sox fans, I mean there are tons of fans of other teams who'd change places with you in a second. Look at the bright side guys, your only 5.5 games out of the wildcard as both the Twins and White Sox are going to lose tonight and you've got a soft Blue Jays team to play for the rest of the weekend.

There is no "woe is me" attitude. We're all just facing reality. It's September 1st, and:

1. Jon Lester has cancer. Fortunately, it's a treatable lymphoma.
2. David Ortiz has an irregular heartbeat.
3. Jon Papelbon just injured his throwing hand.
4. Manny Ramirez has an injured knee and hamstring.
5. Jason Varitek has an injured ankle.
6. Trot Nixon has an injured back.
7. Alex Gonzalez has an injured oblique muscle.
8. Coco Crisp has an injured shoulder.
9. Wily Mo Pena has an injured wrist.
10. Keith Foulke has an injured back.
11. David Wells is a Padre.

I'm sorry, but, seriously, at what point do you want us to get giddy and hopeful?

[orionquest]

All these injuries happening is crazy. I wouldnt be surprized if Lowell gets hit by lightning or Lorretta gets eaten by a crocodile next. Seriously I hope Lester gets well soon.

I'm convinced that Mike Lowell, Mark Loretta and Kevin Youkilis must have a wager on which of them goes down next.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Toight, I wanna like you, I really do. Your passionate about your favorite teams, and I respect that about you. What I will never understand, however, is why whenever anyone has a differing opinion than yours, you immediately accuse them of being ignorant, or uninformed. And you do it in such a condesending manner that makes you come across as, well a jerk. Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, you don't know everything there is to know about sports??? I know you don't care what people on a message board think of you, but is it really that hard to be a little more like Orion? Just askin'

Get Well Soon Jon Lester!

i never said i knew everything. but tell me where i was wrong in my post? you did accuse Manny of checking out on the Redsox didnt you? which is what Orion i told you is not the case. Sorry if you dont like the truth because it kills your Manny bash but its the truth. He has a legit injury.

you dont have to like me i dont care. but i will correct you if you come on here and make uninformed comments like that. and no i wont be more like Orion. he is a nice guy and thats fine. im not like that and never will be. if you say something stupid im gonna let you know about it.

so once again please tell me where i am wrong when i say Manny had a legit injury, has all season and isnt checking out on his team. thanks

[mike99420]

wait one second here.... i know im not Orion but i gotta say something here. What is Manny's act? He has had a knee injury most of this season and has played through it. Its finally caught up to him. In fact when Wily Mo Pena got hurt a few games ago Manny volunteered to play hurt because they didnt have much else. He went out there and tried to play but it hurt him.

Manny's knee injury is legit. He played through it for most of the year when he probably should have been on the DL.

So i dont know what this "act" you are talking about is but there is none.

please know what you are talking about before coming on here and trying to bash a player.
dude usually you have good points as hard as it is to admit, but the lack of manny hustle is not new to this year. i will give him credit for trying to play hurt, but he has his ups and downs with hustle, and im surprised alot of sox fans havent gotten madder. he is a great player no doubt but you cant say he hustles every play in the field or every at bat. hurt or not the truely great players hustle every play, and while he may be great not doing it %100 of the time, you cant tell me its just an injury because this is not something that just started happening since he was hurt this year.

[ToightLikeATiger]

dude usually you have good points as hard as it is to admit, but the lack of manny hustle is not new to this year. i will give him credit for trying to play hurt, but he has his ups and downs with hustle, and im surprised alot of sox fans havent gotten madder. he is a great player no doubt but you cant say he hustles every play in the field or every at bat. hurt or not the truely great players hustle every play, and while he may be great not doing it %100 of the time, you cant tell me its just an injury because this is not something that just started happening since he was hurt this year.

Manny hustles a lot. if you watched him every game you would see that. He has lapses sometimes and a lot of them when he is hurt. But noone cares that he gives 100% about 99% of the time. All people focus on is the 1% of the time.

I dont remember him not hustling this year. Last year when he didnt run hard to first base was the last thing i remember him not hustling. That was when he was battling a hamstring injury and he wasnt given a day off he was suppose to. He still should have been running as hard as he could but i really dont know how hurt these players are.

Why dont people get mad at Manny? how do you get made at a popular guy that is good in the clubhouse and outside. Not only that but he is a big time producer and probably the best right handed hitter in baseball for the last many years.

Not once has many ever done anything detrimental to the team or its morale. that is why he isnt disliked for his 1% of the time he gives 80% instead of 100%.

[Arodjr]

Are you guys talking about the same Manny here? How can you like a guy that asks to be traded AWAY from your team every year??

[mike99420]

Manny hustles a lot. if you watched him every game you would see that. He has lapses sometimes and a lot of them when he is hurt. But noone cares that he gives 100% about 99% of the time. All people focus on is the 1% of the time.

I dont remember him not hustling this year. Last year when he didnt run hard to first base was the last thing i remember him not hustling. That was when he was battling a hamstring injury and he wasnt given a day off he was suppose to. He still should have been running as hard as he could but i really dont know how hurt these players are.

Why dont people get mad at Manny? how do you get made at a popular guy that is good in the clubhouse and outside. Not only that but he is a big time producer and probably the best right handed hitter in baseball for the last many years.

Not once has many ever done anything detrimental to the team or its morale. that is why he isnt disliked for his 1% of the time he gives 80% instead of 100%.

I remember one 2 weeks ago or so. it was before the yanks sox series, and he hit a ball that would have been a double if he was to run at %50 of his speed. and he walked to first, barely made the turn, and went back to first. they were down a run because he had an rbi in the at bat, and i think ortiz got him to 3rd, which would have scored him if he had just hustled, and next batter pop up game over.i wish i remembered who they played. now granted he's hurt, but even with the speed he has being hurt it would have been a double and they would have scored him on ortiz's hit. theres no excuse to me if he doesnt hustle %100 of the time. if that 1%your talking about him not hustling its too much. look at jeter, and papi. they are the two biggest players on both teams, and they hustle %100 of the time, and thats why they are both fan favorites for their teams. i think arod would have retired already if he didnt hustle becuase us yanks fans would have driven him out of ny if it werent for the hustle. manny is still a great player dont get me wrong, and i value the fact that he's playing hurt, but the biggest thing in sports that kills me is anyone who doesnt hustle %100 of the time. not with the money these guys make. im sorry that you think that 99% of the time is good enough when hes getting payed millions. maybe thats why the history's of these two franchises are so different. i would say yanks fans expect the hustle, and apparently 99% is good enough for you guys.

[mike99420]

Are you guys talking about the same Manny here? How can you like a guy that asks to be traded AWAY from your team every year??
great point!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mark Weber]

i never said i knew everything. but tell me where i was wrong in my post? you did accuse Manny of checking out on the Redsox didnt you? which is what Orion i told you is not the case. Sorry if you dont like the truth because it kills your Manny bash but its the truth. He has a legit injury.

you dont have to like me i dont care. but i will correct you if you come on here and make uninformed comments like that. and no i wont be more like Orion. he is a nice guy and thats fine. im not like that and never will be. if you say something stupid im gonna let you know about it.

so once again please tell me where i am wrong when i say Manny had a legit injury, has all season and isnt checking out on his team. thanks

When he says "checking out" maybe he's talking about when Manny returns from inside the Green Monster while a pitch is being thrown, or diving to cut off a throw from CF because he's not paying attention, or refusing to play on a scheduled day off after a teammate gets injured.

[mike99420]

When he says "checking out" maybe he's talking about when Manny returns from inside the Green Monster while a pitch is being thrown, or diving to cut off a throw from CF because he's not paying attention, or refusing to play on a scheduled day off after a teammate gets injured.

did you ever think that maybe his dreadlocks are just a wee bit tight on his head?

[ToightLikeATiger]

im laughing because a few Yankees fans ask Redsox's fans a question. When the question is answered all they do is bash the answer. real mature. if you just plan on bashing dont ask questions to begin with.

Manny is loved in Boston. Dont like it? too bad. done with discussion since all people want to do is argue and bash instead of discuss

[mike99420]

ill take that as a i give up manny doesnt hustle all the time but i still like him.

[ToightLikeATiger]

ill take that as a i give up manny doesnt hustle all the time but i still like him.

take it for whatever you want. you were going to anyway right? welcome to my ignore list where all the other immature and bashing people who cant handle what others say go. dont worry there are many on the list so you will be in good company. only person i dont have on my ignore list that i really wish i could add is Mark Weber. thankfully i am a person who can just skip over his posts and ignoring them anyway

[mike99420]

take it for whatever you want. you were going to anyway right? welcome to my ignore list where all the other immature and bashing people who cant handle what others say go. dont worry there are many on the list so you will be in good company. only person i dont have on my ignore list that i really wish i could add is Mark Weber. thankfully i am a person who can just skip over his posts and ignoring them anyway
ouch, its funny how it works when your the poster bashing other peoples opinions, but cant take the heat back.meanwhile the original question wasnt aimed at you, because they wanted a real answer, and not oh the redsox are always great blind answers that you gave. its funny how the redsox organization thinks the same thing we are saying. i bet he hits waivers again real soon. but hey, at least you got another ring coming in another 84 years.

[BlakChamber]

No doubt if/when Manny leaves the Red Sox, we'll hear from Toight about how he really wasn't that important to the team anyway...

[mike99420]

No doubt if/when Manny leaves the Red Sox, we'll hear from Toight about how he really wasn't that important to the team anyway...

i think your on to something...............

[Arodjr]

This is a trash talking thread is it not?? :rolleyes: if you just plan on bashing dont ask questions to begin with.

[mike99420]

This is a trash talking thread is it not?? :rolleyes: lol!!
oh crap i was on the wrong thread? i thought this was the sweet talking , holding hands with redsox fans thread. oh fooey.

[Therman Merman]

Toight, I cleared up in my response that I was talking about his entire tenure in Boston and not just this year. I also admitted that I should have elaborated more when I posed my question. I realize now that given my timing and lack of proper explanation made it look like I was only talking about this year, but the truth is I wasn't. I also stated that I wasn't aware the injury has been there most of the season. Apparently you glazed over that part of my response.

So I'll ask you the same question I asked Orion. (Bearing in mind I'm talking about his whole tenure in Boston, and not just this year) Are you at all getting tired of his act? And if you aren't, do you have a breaking point? If the answer is no, that's fine. But don't pretend that Manny has been a model teammate, and overlook all of his questionable decisions.

[NYHoustonman]

No doubt if/when Manny leaves the Red Sox, we'll hear from Toight about how he really wasn't that important to the team anyway...

I find that incredibly hard to believe given the numbers he has put up year after year. And, you know what? I think that's why we deal with the BS he puts out from time to time. This year has been by far his best as far as attitude... He hadn't missed a game before this knee thing in a couple of months, as others have said even while he was injured. Simply put, he's the best hitter in the AL outside of Travis Hafner this year, and over the past few he's been arguabely THE best.

Toight, I cleared up in my response that I was talking about his entire tenure in Boston and not just this year. I also admitted that I should have elaborated more when I posed my question. I realize now that given my timing and lack of proper explanation made it look like I was only talking about this year, but the truth is I wasn't. I also stated that I wasn't aware the injury has been there most of the season. Apparently you glazed over that part of my response.

So I'll ask you the same question I asked Orion. (Bearing in mind I'm talking about his whole tenure in Boston, and not just this year) Are you at all getting tired of his act? And if you aren't, do you have a breaking point? If the answer is no, that's fine. But don't pretend that Manny has been a model teammate, and overlook all of his questionable decisions.

I'll answer, too... Of course there's a breaking point. He's my favorite player, and he was still pissing me off the past few years when he would ask for trades, and to be honest it's downright embarassing when he doesn't hustle. But for now I deal with it, because in the end, as I said, he's been trememndous the past several years.


And while we're on the topic of useless player treatment bashing (not you in particular, but... other people), why is it that you Yankee fans booed ARod half the season? To me, that kind of thing is far worse considering the guy was an MVP last year. :)

[mike99420]

Toight, I cleared up in my response that I was talking about his entire tenure in Boston and not just this year. I also admitted that I should have elaborated more when I posed my question. I realize now that given my timing and lack of proper explanation made it look like I was only talking about this year, but the truth is I wasn't. I also stated that I wasn't aware the injury has been there most of the season. Apparently you glazed over that part of my response.

So I'll ask you the same question I asked Orion. (Bearing in mind I'm talking about his whole tenure in Boston, and not just this year) Are you at all getting tired of his act? And if you aren't, do you have a breaking point? If the answer is no, that's fine. But don't pretend that Manny has been a model teammate, and overlook all of his questionable decisions.

dont you know your already on his ignore list for coming to a yankee redsox trash talking thread because you dont like the redsox?

[Therman Merman]

When he says "checking out" maybe he's talking about when Manny returns from inside the Green Monster while a pitch is being thrown, or diving to cut off a throw from CF because he's not paying attention, or refusing to play on a scheduled day off after a teammate gets injured.Actually this is precisely the kind of stuff I'm reffering to Toight. Among other stuff. Just to give you an idea of what I'm driving at.

[mike99420]

I find that incredibly hard to believe given the numbers he has put up year after year. And, you know what? I think that's why we deal with the BS he puts out from time to time. This year has been by far his best as far as attitude... He hadn't missed a game before this knee thing in a couple of months, as others have said even while he was injured. Simply put, he's the best hitter in the AL outside of Travis Hafner this year, and over the past few he's been arguabely THE best.
i agree with you he is a great player, but he has been sketchy his whole career, and whos to say that he keeps up how he has acted this year? he used to be game to game for if he was going to go full throtte. im not disputing his ability, i just question the fact that he doesnt hustle every game. albeit this year he has been awesome despite injury, but who knows how long he keeps this up before he goes the other way. he has never shown that he will be like this for the rest of his career, because his hustle up until this year has been inconsistant. i already counted at least one time this year that he cost the team a win because of hustle, which shouldnt happen. i will conceed that his numbers have won alot more games then most players, but who knows how long he is good manny for?

[Therman Merman]

dont you know your already on his ignore list for coming to a yankee redsox trash talking thread because you dont like the redsox?I don't see any reason why I would be on his ignore list. I try to have civil discussions in this thread, and not let my dislike of the Red Sox lead me to childish banter. Just like the Manny question I asked Orien, nothing wrong or out of line with that. But if I am on his list, then so be it. That's his right.

[mike99420]

I don't see any reason why I would be on his ignore list. I try to have civil discussions in this thread, and not let my dislike of the Red Sox lead me to childish banter. Just like the Manny question I asked Orien, nothing wrong or out of line with that. But if I am on his list, then so be it. That's his right.
i was just poking at him because he put me on his ignore list that, so i was just joking.

[Therman Merman]

I'll answer, too... Of course there's a breaking point. He's my favorite player, and he was still pissing me off the past few years when he would ask for trades, and to be honest it's downright embarassing when he doesn't hustle. But for now I deal with it, because in the end, as I said, he's been trememndous the past several years.Thanks. That was exactly the kind of honest response I was looking for. I almost never hear a bad word uttered about Manny by Sox fans, yet he has certainly earned his share of criticism. I was beginning to think Sox fans were completely apathetic to his (for lack of a better term) shenanigans.

[Therman Merman]

i was just poking at him because he put me on his ignore list that, so i was just joking.No, I know you were. Not sure why I responded so seriously.:D

[mike99420]

btw if anyone is watching the yanks game right now, i think karstens needs his eyebrows waxed they are thick as hell!

[SharpyDave]

^ he kind of resemble Steve O.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Toight, I cleared up in my response that I was talking about his entire tenure in Boston and not just this year. I also admitted that I should have elaborated more when I posed my question. I realize now that given my timing and lack of proper explanation made it look like I was only talking about this year, but the truth is I wasn't. I also stated that I wasn't aware the injury has been there most of the season. Apparently you glazed over that part of my response.

So I'll ask you the same question I asked Orion. (Bearing in mind I'm talking about his whole tenure in Boston, and not just this year) Are you at all getting tired of his act? And if you aren't, do you have a breaking point? If the answer is no, that's fine. But don't pretend that Manny has been a model teammate, and overlook all of his questionable decisions.

no i am not tired of his act because really there isnt any. until he does something detrimental to hurt the team Manny will be loved. Noone claimed he was the smartest guy. But he is a great player and great with teammates and fans. You cant ask for much more.

the only breaking point is if he harms the team in someway. he has never done that so there are no issues.

[Tanner2126]

no i am not tired of his act because really there isnt any. until he does something detrimental to hurt the team Manny will be loved. Noone claimed he was the smartest guy. But he is a great player and great with teammates and fans. You cant ask for much more.

the only breaking point is if he harms the team in someway. he has never done that so there are no issues.

So a guy that asks to be traded in the middle of the season and sits out a couple games, is not harming the team??? :confused: Seems like a club house distraction to me.

[Mark Weber]

only person i dont have on my ignore list that i really wish i could add is Mark Weber. thankfully i am a person who can just skip over his posts and ignoring them anyway

Damn. Then you're missing out on some really good baseball insight. :)

[Mark Weber]

no i am not tired of his act because really there isnt any. until he does something detrimental to hurt the team Manny will be loved. Noone claimed he was the smartest guy. But he is a great player and great with teammates and fans. You cant ask for much more.

the only breaking point is if he harms the team in someway. he has never done that so there are no issues.

So refusing to play on a scheduled day off after Trot Nixon gets hurt the night before makes Manny:

A. a great teammate
B. not harming the team in any way
C. both

Which is it? I just can't seem to figure it out...

[Mark Weber]

Rob Neyer’s recent ESPN Insider article on Boston’s recent front-office decisions:

There's a telling passage in Seth Mnookin's new book about the Red Sox, "Feeding the Monster: How Money, Smarts, and Nerve Took a Team to the Top." It's about a staff meeting shortly after the Red Sox were eliminated by the White Sox this past October, and Theo Epstein tells senior staff the following:

We sat here in April and talked about building an überteam. That's dangerous. That's very dangerous. We need to be aware of the potential that the bubble could burst. Yes, it's a pro that, on the business side, we continued to grow. But on the con side is the amount of hype as we move toward superpower status. Yes, we won 95 games this year, but this approach isn't really sustainable over the long run. Sooner or later we might need to take half a step backward in return for a step forward. ... I warned about this in April. What if we win 85 games? We're bringing up some young players that are going to be better in '07 than they will be next year. And they'll probably be even better than that in '08.

Today, it looks as though the Red Sox are going to win 85 games this season. Give or take a few. However many they win, they're not going to the playoffs and they certainly don't resemble an überteam (the Yankees still have that category to themselves). After the Red Sox won the World Series, it became fashionable in some quarters -- including this one, I'm embarrassed to admit -- to suggest that the Red Sox were simply becoming the New Yankees, that they might simply spend their way to 95-100 wins every season.

Well, they tried. The only recent products of the farm system playing a significant role for the Red Sox this season are Jonathan Papelbon and Kevin Youkilis, and Youkilis is no kid (meanwhile, the Yankees have relied on three recent graduates). It didn't work because while the Yankees have filled holes with Johnny Damon and Bobby Abreu, the Red Sox have filled holes with Coco Crisp and Alex Gonzalez.

Other results of this approach?

Freddy Sanchez , Second/Third Base - Pittsburgh Pirates
2006 SEASON STATISTICS
GM HR RBI R OBP AVG
130 6 73 74 .384 .347

• In 2003, the Red Sox traded Freddy Sanchez and Mike Gonzalez to Pittsburgh for Jeff Suppan, Brandon Lyon and Anastacio Martinez. Suppan went 3-4 with a 5.57 ERA with the Red Sox and didn't pitch in the postseason. Reliever Lyon gave the Red Sox some decent innings that season, then was one of the platoon of players sent to Arizona for Curt Schilling. Martinez has spent most of the three years since the deal in the minors. Sanchez is probably going to win the National League batting title this season. Gonzalez, before he got hurt, converted 24 of his 24 save opportunities for the Pirates.

This past November, the Red Sox traded Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez and two other young players to the Marlins for Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell and Guillermo Mota. Ramirez is a solid Rookie of the Year candidate, and 22-year-old Sanchez has a significantly lower (if somewhat misleading) ERA than Beckett does. The two other young players, both 22, have pitched well in Class A this summer.

In January, the Red Sox traded Andy Marte, Mota and Kelly Shoppach to the Indians for Coco Crisp, David Riske and Josh Bard. Marte, who projected as a future star, struggled some in Triple-A this season but doesn't turn 23 until next month and looks like a big part of the Indians' future. Crisp, the centerpiece of the deal, has been a complete bust with the Red Sox.

Josh Bard, Catcher - San Diego Padres
2006 SEASON STATISTICS
GM HR RBI R OBP AVG
85 7 33 23 .407 .324

In May, the Red Sox traded Bard and Cla Meredith to the Padres for Doug Mirabelli. Mirabelli's batting .189 with the Red Sox, and Tim Wakefield -- the only reason for Mirabelli's presence on the roster -- hasn't pitched since mid-July. Meanwhile, Bard is batting .328 for the Padres and Meredith has posted a 0.89 ERA in 30 relief innings.

Would the Red Sox be better off right now if they had Freddy Sanchez, Anibal Sanchez, Ramirez, Marte, Bard and Meredith on the roster? Yes, they probably would. Would they be better off next season -- and for the next few seasons -- if they had those guys? Obviously. And I'm sure I'm missing a few other deals like this, more trading kids for veterans who really didn't do much afterward. The worst sort of trades you can make.

One gets the impression that Epstein would have preferred to take half a step backward at a time of his choosing. But the half a step -- which lately is looking like a whole step -- has chosen its own time. Next up: Do the Red Sox learn something from this half (or whole) step backward? Or do they get back on the treadmill, trade a few more young players and try one more time to build that elusive überteam.

Funny I didn't get cited in that article. Check out post #2011 on this thread. I forgot that Freddy Sanchez and Mike Gonzalez were Red Sox prospects they traded away. So with some different front office decisions, Boston's lineup could have looked like this (featuring a talented infield that averages 24 years old...)

C: Jason Varitek, Kelly Shoppach
1B: Kevin Youkilis
2B: Freddy Sanchez
SS: Hanley Ramirez
3B: Andy Marte
LF: Manny Ramirez
CF: Johnny Damon (re-sign him instead of absorbing Lowell's contract)
RF: Trot Nixon
DH: David Ortiz

SP: Curt Schilling, Jonathan Papelbon, Tim Wakefield, Jon Lester & Anibal Sanchez
RP: Mike Gonzalez, Cla Meredith, Manny Delcarmen, Mike Timlin, Craig Hansen, Keith Foulke

[mike99420]

great post mark, i agree with you on most of it. not that the yanks are the model for success through yougsters, but they have produced 3 solid young players in the last 2 years, and look as if they have 3 young pitchers who may develop as well.

[NYHoustonman]

All I can say is that hindsight is 20/20. If you had seen Bard trying to catch Wakefield (which I'm guessing by your words that you haven't), you would see the need for Doug Mirabelli. Nobody knew that Josh Beckett would struggle so mightily this year; many analysts were choosing him to win the Cy Young. Freddy Sanchez is a guy who was horrible with the Sox while he was up, and at 25 was already nearing his prime. From what I've heard of the whole Damon debacle, he never gave the Sox a chance to come back and answer the Yankees' offer. And, as I said before, Arroyo simply wasn't as needed at the beginning of the year; the Sox had Schilling, Beckett, Clement, Wakefield, and Wells, a solid starting rotation.

[Therman Merman]

I agree with most of your points NYH, but if Mirabelli was so critical to the team, (being the only guy who can catch Wakefield) then why was he ever considered expendable? Did Bard ever show signs in the minors of being someone who could catch the knuckleball? If not, then that is a case of seriously poor planning.

[Mark Weber]

All I can say is that hindsight is 20/20. If you had seen Bard trying to catch Wakefield (which I'm guessing by your words that you haven't), you would see the need for Doug Mirabelli. Nobody knew that Josh Beckett would struggle so mightily this year; many analysts were choosing him to win the Cy Young. Freddy Sanchez is a guy who was horrible with the Sox while he was up, and at 25 was already nearing his prime. From what I've heard of the whole Damon debacle, he never gave the Sox a chance to come back and answer the Yankees' offer. And, as I said before, Arroyo simply wasn't as needed at the beginning of the year; the Sox had Schilling, Beckett, Clement, Wakefield, and Wells, a solid starting rotation.

I didn't include the Bard trade because in hindsight, I think Boston would have kept Marte rather than acquire Crisp - so Bard never comes to Boston in the deal with Cleveland. I saw Bard try and catch Wakefield and it was a nightmare. And even though I think they got a screaming deal in sending Mirabelii for Loretta, you never would have had to trade Mirabelli at all if you'd held on to Freddy Sanchez. If the front office thought Bard would be a reliable receiver for Wakefield, then that failure is on them as well.

I didn't expect Beckett to struggle so much in Boston, but the Sox may have compunded the issue by signing him to a contract extension. My point is not to giggle at Boston's front office, but to illustrate how much young talent has been shipped out of Boston in favor of older, more expensive players. If you rewind 30 pages in this thread I've got my Master's thesis on why players don't stay in Boston.

The Yankees gave Damon the same contract Furcal signed to leadoff in L.A. (plus one extra year) and said it was their last offer and it expired at midnight. I believe Damon took it back to Boston, but with their front office in disarray (Epstein had recently walked out) they could not or did not want to counter it. My point is - if you weren't paying Loretta, Lowell and Beckett you could have afforded to keep Damon in center, as long as Jason Varitek didn't get *****y about the salary disparity.

Geez and I totally forgot about Arroyo - but I'm not as down on that trade as some people are. Pena has a lot of talent (and he's younger and cheaper - the reverse of most recent Sox trades), and Boston needs a RF replacement for Trot Nixon when they let him walk at year's end.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Redsox with a comeback win tonight. 3-2 over Whitesox. Made Bobby Jenks blow a save.

It MAY be too late but its good to see Manny, Trot, Vtek and Gonzo back in the lineup. Tonight they showed heart and what the team was before all the injuries.

They probably wont make the playoffs (even though mathmatically not eliminated) but a strong finish with the starters back will really show what the team is made of. Hopefully David Ortiz gets medically cleared soon so can see him back on the field. Also cant wait to see Tim Wakefield get back into the rotation.

Redsox will never give up. the core guys on this team know that anything is possible. they made history once and know never to give up. its good to see the team still giving 100% no matter what the situation.

[Tanner2126]

Hopefully David Ortiz gets medically cleared soon so can see him back on the field.


Back on the field :confused: He must be only healthy during inter-league play cause I havent watched on the field playing an american league team yet.

[ToightLikeATiger]

Back on the field :confused: He must be only healthy during inter-league play cause I havent watched on the field playing an american league team yet.

grow up you classless child

[Tanner2126]

grow up you classless child

hahaha, i must have struck a nerve LMAO!!!!!!!!!

[ToightLikeATiger]

hahaha, i must have struck a nerve LMAO!!!!!!!!!

yeah i dont find making fun of someone who had a heart condition anything to joke about. god forbid anyone in your family has to go through any type of heart scare. will you be joking then? i think not.

grow up and learn to act like a human being that knows there is more to life then baseball and a rivalry.

you go back on my ignore list for such childish and down right disgusting comments.

[Tanner2126]

yeah i dont find making fun of someone who had a heart condition anything to joke about. god forbid anyone in your family has to go through any type of heart scare. will you be joking then? i think not.

grow up and learn to act like a human being that knows there is more to life then baseball and a rivalry.

you go back on my ignore list for such childish and down right disgusting comments.

Grow up man. Forreal! Show me where i made fun of his health issue? I was just making a joke of him not playing the field. This is what I said about his health issue in the thread about it, As much as I hate to see him bat against the Yankees, I dont want to see anything bad happen to him. Hes a great baseball player and a great person. I hope its nothing serious. . You gotta learn to take a joke. Oh and go ahead and put me on your ignore list, cause i could careless. I dont take this message board as serious as you.

[Tanner2126]

Jeters probably gonna finish the night 2 points behind Mauer if the Royals dont tie it up in the 9th. Jeter for MVP!!!

[Bronx Bombers]

Jeter for MVP!!!!

[Hardcore Legend]

It was nice to see Varitek back in the line-up for the Sox. Kinda reminded me of the team before Theo went crazy and just started moving pieces like a mad scientist.

[Mark Weber]

Back on the field :confused: He must be only healthy during inter-league play cause I havent watched on the field playing an american league team yet.

Solid Rip. If New York plays .600 ball (their average for the season) the rest of the way Boston has to go 23-1 to catch them for the East lead. Not sure what the Wild Card numbers are. Wakefield could take Schilling's spot in the rotation...

[Mark Weber]

yeah i dont find making fun of someone who had a heart condition anything to joke about. god forbid anyone in your family has to go through any type of heart scare. will you be joking then? i think not.

grow up and learn to act like a human being that knows there is more to life then baseball and a rivalry.

you go back on my ignore list for such childish and down right disgusting comments.

It's pretty obvious he was making fun of Ortiz's sprained glove and not his heart condition. How long has that glove been day-to-day anyway? :)

[Green-eye Glow]

just as an aside, i think that jorge posada's performance this year will HAVE to dictate that he gets his second figure sometime soon.

[Green-eye Glow]

and btw, what about a chien-ming wang figure, mark? your mlb lines could use a little more racial diversity anyhow.

[Tanner2126]

Solid Rip.

Thanks Mark! He set himself up for that one!

Im sure we will get a Wang figure sometime in the next 2 years Green-eye.

[Rich Zufelt]

grow up you classless child
This coming from a guy that chooses to bash Police Officers, and so many more on this site. You making this statement has me LMAO !!!!

[Mark Weber]

Congrats to former Red Sox prospect Anibal Sanchez on his no-hitter for the Marlins today!

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/AP_Photo/2005/12/09/1134171965_8859.jpg

[Tanner2126]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH, YOUR TOO FUNNY MARK!

[SharpyDave]

ooh, that was low(ell)

[Mark Weber]

ooh, that was low(ell)

I disagree - I think it was lowe...

http://graphics.boston.com/images/bostondirtdogs//Headline_Archives/DL_Dod_BDD.jpg

14-8 with a 3.64 ERA for the West-leading Dodgers this year...

[BurningSoul]

That was a Lowe blow.

[Tanner2126]

HAHAHAHAHHA you guys are funny!!!!

[NYHoustonman]

While we're on the topic of nonsensical (again, hindsight is 20/20) managemeng bashing, how about Andy Pettitte, Cy Young candidate last year and having another good year this year?

[Mark Weber]

Pettitte wanted to leave New York - he was determined to sign in Texas to be closer to his family. It's a shame the Yankees only squeezed four championships out his too-brief tenure in New York.

But hey, to return serve: Padres Rookie (and former Red Sox prospect) Cla Meredith's scoreless innings streak stands at 29, the new franchise record for a reliever.

[Mavrik28]

While we're on the topic of nonsensical (again, hindsight is 20/20) managemeng bashing, how about Andy Pettitte, Cy Young candidate last year and having another good year this year?
Pettitte is not having that good of a year. He has the second highest ERA of his career, he's given up more homers then any other year of his career, and he's on pace to give up the most hits in his career.

I'm happy that he got a chance to play at home. The Yanks made him a big offer, but he really wanted to be with his family and you can't fault that.

[Bronx Bombers]

Why were you suspended for a month?

[Bronx Bombers]

Chien-Ming Wang now 17-5. Hes gonna be an amazing pitcher considering he is 17-5 in his first full year.

[Mavrik28]

Losing to the Royals again. Wow the Red Sox stink.

Meanwhile Wang gets another win. Too bad the Yanks can't produced any good players of their own.

[RedWingsCuj031]

Losing to the Royals again. Wow the Red Sox stink.

Meanwhile Wang gets another win. Too bad the Yanks can't produced any good players of their own.


What do you mean they cant produce any players of their own? Cano, Jeter, Wang the list goes on dude

[Bronx Bombers]

What do you mean they cant produce any players of their own? Cano, Jeter, Wang the list goes on dude
Sarcasm, cause everyone says Yankees cant produce anyone and have to trade or sign people.

[Thur34]

Where are those loud mouth Sox fans?

[NYHoustonman]

Where are those loud mouth Sox fans?

Mourning the swift death of a promising season :( . How a major league bullpen gives up 6 runs to the KC Royals is beyond me. Would you have liked all the Sox fans to come into the trash talking thread boasting about how they just lost to the Royals, again? Cause that's about all there is to talk about...

Sarcasm, cause everyone says Yankees cant produce anyone and have to trade or sign people.

We (generally) say you sign high-priced veterans and as a result your payroll dwarfs everyone else's - it has nothing to do with how much major league talent you call up from your minor league system.

[Mavrik28]

What do you mean they cant produce any players of their own? Cano, Jeter, Wang the list goes on dude

Its called sarcasm.

[Mark Weber]

David Ortiz, the American League leader in home runs and RBI, says Boston's fall from the American League playoff race should not disqualify him from the race for the AL's Most Valuable Player award.

But Ortiz told reporters after the Red Sox's 9-3 win over the Royals on Sunday that he thinks that's what's going to happen.

"I'll tell you one thing," Ortiz said. "If I get 50 home runs and 10 more RBI [which would give him 137], that's going to be a round number that no one else in the American League will have."

"But they'll vote for a position player, use that as an excuse. They're talking about Derek Jeter a lot, right? He's done a great job, he's having a great season, but Jeter is not a 40-homer hitter or an RBI guy. It doesn't matter how much you've done for your ball club, the bottom line is, the guy who hits 40 home runs and knocks in 100, that's the guy you know helped your team win games.

"Don't get me wrong -- he's a great player, having a great season, but he's got a lot of guys in that lineup," Ortiz continued. "Top to bottom, you've got a guy who can hurt you. Come hit in this lineup, see how good you can be."

[TS16NYC]

weak.
but guys who are bitter often sound lame.
also - why is he openly campaigning for the award.
jeter won't even talk about it.
surprisingly selfish of ortiz.

[Patriots2421]

Well not to bash Ortiz, but yeah one quality of an MVP should be to be there and produce EVERYDAY. Not only did Boston fall, but he also at that same time disappeared on what wasn’t an injury. Of course be safe and get your self checked, but he also wasn’t saving the team during their down fall. (when he WAS and wasn’t there)

[Mark Weber]

I don't fault him for answering the question - I'm sure a reporter asked him about it - I doubt if he just started talking about the MVP award out of the blue.

Papi, I've got three points for you to consider:

1. Instead of being bitter about them "voting for a position player, using that as an excuse," why don't you work on your defense to allow Boston some lineup flexibility? Maybe that'll keep Varitek and co. healthy longer into the season. Your defensive inability makes you a permanent DH, and LESS VALUABLE to your team.

2. Saying "Come hit in this lineup, see how good you can be." is a slap at your teammates. Jeter has been the most consistent offensive contributor for New York this season - he helped keep the ship afloat when Matsui and Sheffield got hurt and A-Rod went through his two prolonged slumps. When Varitek and Nixon got hurt, Boston needed Ortiz more than ever and his production slipped instead.

3. On August 1st New York and Boston were tied atop the A.L. East. Boston lost 18 of their next 26 games, including getting swept by Tampa and getting poleaxed by the Yankees five straight at home. During this collapse, Ortiz hit .276 with 16 RBI in 26 games. Those aren't bad numbers, but they aren't MVP numbers either.

I'm not going to hold his medical condition against him - he didn't miss that much time and the divisional damage had already been done.

[Tanner2126]

So I guess Giambi is more valuable to Yankees then Jeter.

To bad his(Ortiz) stats arent helping his team making it to the playoffs.

[Eric]

My only problem with his comments is the "come hit in this lineup" thing. That's pretty messed up, taking a shot at your teammates like that. Even if they were in last place that'd be a shady thing to say.

Other than that I'm glad he was so honest. It's a nice change of pace from the usual cliches you'd hear from pro athletes.

[TheRiddler]

DH shouldn't win MVP, ever. Sorry. You are half of a player, even if you are great (maybe the best) at that half.

[BurningSoul]

Try hitting in this lineup??? LOL Whats so bad about hitting in front of Manny? I'd love to see his numbers if he wasn't hitting in front of one of baseballs most dangerous hitters. I like Ortiz but he certainly wasn't thinking when he made that statement.

He brought up something else I've always hated about the MVP award. What makes a player who hits 40 HR's 130 RBI's more qualified for the award than great players who aren't power hitters. I was glad to see Ichiro win the MVP award a few years ago because players like him and Jeter are just as important or more important than the power numbers guys.

[Bronx Bombers]

I think he just cost himself third place in MVP voting.

[Makaveli_tha_don]

Jeter for MVP! :)

[madcracker]

DH shouldn't win MVP, ever. Sorry. You are half of a player, even if you are great (maybe the best) at that half.


I don't think that's a good argument. I have no problems with an American League pitcher being named MVP.

[iggypimpin]

JERMAINE DYE IS MVP!

[bjd2933]

Sounds more like a concession that he knows his team is toast... so he really has nothing else to play for.

[Beantown's Finest]

The hell with you guys. Just Shut UP! BIG PAPI is the MVP of the American without his tirade. It seems to me you New Yorker who are answering this thread should worry about the Patriots getting ready to kick the stuffing out of the Jets and hope that NY Football Giants can get a win. The Yankees will not win the world series so get off of your high horse. As for you Mark, we have the best fans in America and still no stadium giveaway. 3 Yankees and no Red Sox. Do you know how many new collectors you would gain by having an annual giveaway.

On a Positive note: May GOD bless all the victims of 9-11 and their family and friends and any boardies that may have been touched by this tragedy

[Patriots2421]

Is Mark trying to reaffirm his standing as a Yankee fan? In time for the play offs?

[Mark Weber]

As for you Mark, we have the best fans in America and still no stadium giveaway. 3 Yankees and no Red Sox. Do you know how many new collectors you would gain by having an annual giveaway.

Do you think we haven't approached Boston with an SGA proposal? It's a shame they haven't wanted to give one to the "best fans in America" as a thank you for paying the highest MLB ticket price in America. :)

[iggypimpin]

uhm....i think i already told you guys who is MVP! JERMAINE DYE! also Mark, there should be more White Sox figures! and don't say Thome! you guys should have Dye in White Sox and chase in A's!

[Hulkster]

If the Angels somehow sneak into the playoffs (which I doubt will happen) Vladimir Guerrero should be MVP and there shouldn't even be an argument.

Dye gets hurt, White Sox with Thome and Konerko still win
Jeter gets hurt, the Yankees still would have enough to stay afloat, they've shown their resilence all year.
Guerrero gets hurt, the Angels would be in last place 20 games under .500

[BlakChamber]

The hell with you guys. Just Shut UP! BIG PAPI is the MVP of the American without his tirade.
Shouldn't the AL MVP lead his team to the playoffs? Just wondering.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Who should win?

Frank Thomas, Oakland Athletics: .281, 35 HRs, 97 RBI at the moment. He's accounted for something like 38% of the A's offensive production which is incredible and they're still one of the worst offensive teams in baseball so think about where they'd be without him.

Who will win?

Derek Jeter, New York Yankees: .345, 13 HRs, 91 RBI at the moment. National writers who have been slurping on Jeter for the last decade will finally have the chance to show him how they really feel. After the last few weeks I've been observing what's being said in the media and Jeter seems like a lock for this award because people seem to be going ga-ga over him. The Yankees are still a 90-win team without him so I don't know what giving him this award will accomplish but I can tell you that it's a one horse race now.

My MVP ballot would probably look something like this:

1) Frank Thomas
2) Justin Mourneau
3) David Ortiz
4) Jermaine Dye
5) Derek Jeter

I feel bad for Ortiz because I felt he should have won the award last year and felt that he was a lock for the award in mid-August but realistically he won't even be in the conversation now in the eyes of the voters.

[Hulkster]

My MVP ballot would probably look something like this:

1) Frank Thomas
2) Justin Mourneau
3) David Ortiz
4) Jermaine Dye
5) Derek Jeter



I agree with you on Mourneau, he's been outstanding, but if you follow the A's as closely as I do you'd realize their season has been so dang weird that even without Thomas I think they'd still be where they are. Plus he's a DH, and no way a DH that can barely make it to first on an off the wall shot should be an MVP. If he doesn't hit a Home Run he hurts the team when he's on the bases. he has 33 home runs and 8 doubles. He's about as one dimensional as a player gets. They should petition baseball to put someone in a box behind the umpire to run for him on contact.

I think if the Angels make the playoffs Guerrero is MVP hands down because the only way they make it is if he gets even hotter, and he's hitting almost .400 since July 1st.

If the Angels don't make it and the Twins do Morneau should get heavy consideration, no question, but you're probably right, Jeter will more than likely win it!

[DJBurnside]

My opinion is that .345, 13 HR, 91 RBIs plus great defense is more valuable than 50 HR 130 RBIs and no defense. Offense is fun to watch but Defense is a huge part of the game. DH does not contribute to defense. That is why to me either Dye or Jeter should get it.

[TS16NYC]

Dear Boston:

The Patriots are better than the Jets.
Also Jeter is the MVP this year.

From: New York

[SkoalStangGT]

Do you think we haven't approached Boston with an SGA proposal? It's a shame they haven't wanted to give one to the "best fans in America" as a thank you for paying the highest MLB ticket price in America. :)



post all you want...just stick to making the Ortiz 2 figure. :D

[Mark Weber]

Is Mark trying to reaffirm his standing as a Yankee fan? In time for the play offs?

Reaffirm what? I've been kicking the Red Sox all year in the trash talking thread. In case you missed it:

The 2006 World Champion Boston Red Sox

C: Jason Varitek (hitting .241 with 12 HR and 52 RBI in 320 at-bats)
1B: Kevin Youkilis (hitting .284 with 13 HR, 66 RBI, a .385 OBP and a .432 SLG)
2B: Freddy Sanchez (hiting .340 with 6 HR, 72 RBI, a .377 OBP and a .472 SLG)
SS: Hanley Ramirez (hitting .286 w/ 13 HR, 49 RBI, 47 SB, a .353 OBP & a .459 SLG)
3B: Andy Marte (hitting .225 with 11 2B, 2 HR, 15 RBI in 111 at-bats)
LF: Manny Ramirez (hitting .318 with 34 HR, 101 RBI, a .436 OBP and a .612 SLG)
CF: Johnny Damon (hitting .298 with 22 HR, 76 RBI, 24 SB, a .368 OBP & a .501 SLG)
RF: Trot Nixon (hitting .287 with 7 HR and 48 RBI in 327 at-bats)
DH: David Ortiz (hitting .288 with 48 HR, 127 RBI, a .402 OBP and a .633 SLG)

SP: Curt Schilling (14-7 with 171 K's in 192 IP, 1.20 WHIP and a 4.13 ERA)
SP: Jonathan Papelbon (4-2 with 35 saves, 75 Ks in 68 IP, 0.78 WHIP and 0.92 ERA)
SP: Tim Wakefield (7-8 with a 1.25 WHIP and a 4.14 ERA)
SP: Bronson Arroyo (13-9 with a 1.18 WHIP and a 3.29 ERA)
SP: Anibal Sanchez (7-2 with a 1.19 WHIP and a 2.89 ERA in 14 starts)

RP: Mike Timlin (6-5 with 4 saves, 21 holds, 1.38 WHIP and 3.97 ERA)
RP: Mike Myers (1-1 with 13 holds, 21 K in 26 IP, 1.24 WHIP and a 1.24 ERA)
RP: Mike Gonzalez (3-4 with 24 saves, 64 K in 54 IP, 1.35 WHIP and a 2.17 ERA)
RP: Jon Lester (7-2 with 1.65 WHIP and a 4.76 ERA)
RP: Keith Foulke (2-1 with 10 holds, 1.27 WHIP and 5.27 ERA)

CL: Cla Meredith (5-1 with 10 holds, 0.64 WHIP and a 0.69 ERA)

That's assuming Boston doesn't make the Jeff Suppan, Josh Beckett, Coco Crisp and Wily Mo Pena deals, and uses the money saved on the Beckett contract to re-sign Johnny Damon.

[Todd13]

God forbid, Someone talks about Jeter. Need some cheese with that?

[pakalolo2]

I don't fault him for answering the question - I'm sure a reporter asked him about it - I doubt if he just started talking about the MVP award out of the blue.

Papi, I've got three points for you to consider:

1. Instead of being bitter about them "voting for a position player, using that as an excuse," why don't you work on your defense to allow Boston some lineup flexibility? Maybe that'll keep Varitek and co. healthy longer into the season. Your defensive inability makes you a permanent DH, and LESS VALUABLE to your team.

2. Saying "Come hit in this lineup, see how good you can be." is a slap at your teammates. Jeter has been the most consistent offensive contributor for New York this season - he helped keep the ship afloat when Matsui and Sheffield got hurt and A-Rod went through his two prolonged slumps. When Varitek and Nixon got hurt, Boston needed Ortiz more than ever and his production slipped instead.

3. On August 1st New York and Boston were tied atop the A.L. East. Boston lost 18 of their next 26 games, including getting swept by Tampa and getting poleaxed by the Yankees five straight at home. During this collapse, Ortiz hit .276 with 16 RBI in 26 games. Those aren't bad numbers, but they aren't MVP numbers either.

I'm not going to hold his medical condition against him - he didn't miss that much time and the divisional damage had already been done.

Mark, I have 3 things for you to consider:

1 He does play first base, when needed, but if there's another player better at defense, I think the obvious choice would be to play the better first baseman.

2. To help keep a lineup afloat? I think A Rod, Giambi, Damon, Posada, and Williams had something to do with that, but I guess you don't.

3. This sounds like something that belongs in your little "Yankee/Sox trash thread".

2004...in a row.

[Tanner2126]

"I think sometimes people lose sight when they talk about baseball players, that hitting home runs makes them great, and if you don't hit home runs, then you're not," Jeter said. "Home runs get all the highlights -- you see them on 'SportsCenter' and all that. But there's more to the game than just home runs."

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060904&content_id=1644981&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy

Good Point Derek!!

!
"I think Derek would appreciate that more than a batting title, because it's connected to the team and that's what he's about," Torre said.

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060903&content_id=1643177&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy

So Torre, what your saying is, it doesnt matter if that person wants 50 homeruns and just 10 more RBI's to get 137 to add to his stats, its about contributing to the teams sucess and helping them get to the playoffs to win the world series??? OHHHHH!!!!!!!

From now till the season ends, how many sacrifice bunts will Ortiz have to help his team win??? I bet none!!! But that homerun will help HIS stats out!

[Tanner2126]

Mark, I have 3 things for you to consider:

1 He does play first base, when needed, but if there's another player better at defense, I think the obvious choice would be to play the better first baseman.


Your right, he plays first base....only when he CANT dh. ;)

[WingNut 25]

I love how he says at the end of the article how he doesn't worry about it yet says all that. He came off as totally bitter that no one is mentioning his name anymore. He says a 40 HR, 100 RBI guy is the guy who helped his team the most, well I have 2 words for you Papi: Travis Hafner. His team isn't gonna make the playoffs either and he'll get some MVP votes but won't win it, just like Papi won't. Jeter or Dye will win the MVP because they are the most deserving right now.

[BlakChamber]

1 He does play first base, when its an interleague road game and there's no choice but to play him there, but if there's another player better at defense, I think the obvious choice would be to play the better first baseman.

Fixed it for ya ;)

[Therman Merman]

God forbid, Someone talks about Jeter. Need some cheese with that?Say what you want, but it sounds to me like the only who needs some cheese to go with their whine, is Papi.

[zurita54]

MVP should go to a player from a playoff team. The player is supposed to make a difference, and with or without him the team still does not make the post season so hence he is not the most valuable player.

[therocksays]

I think anyone who is a baseball fan has got to vote for Jeter or Dye. First off Jeter has been great with the bat and awesome in the field. How many number 2 hitters have 90+ RBI's in that spot. He has carried the team all year with the absence of Matsui and Sheffield and with Arod's sad year. He has people in the lineup named Melky, Phillips, Green. All players that were not roster players at the beginning of year. I also agree Dye could be in the voting too. David Ortiz is a one dimensional player who couldn't carry his team when Varitek and Nixon went down. MAybe the MVP of that team is Varitek. That team slid when he left. Frank Thomas is a no go. HAs always proven to be a team distraction and a cry baby. If anyone on this list needs cheese, it always has been Frank Thomas. My vote goes to Jeter and close second Dye.

[kingsx27]

Shouldn't the AL MVP lead his team to the playoffs? Just wondering.

Ummm...didn't A-Rod win it with his team in last place.

Which, I don't think a player whose team is not in the playoffs should win the award and I like the Red Sox. I think Dye deserves a lot of consideration because I feel he's got great numbers and has been pretty consistent. But his team may not make the playoffs.

I have a real problem giving it to a Yankee because anyone should be able to hit in that lineup. I still believe they're what's wrong with baseball.

Just my opinion...

[TastySweetNutz]

When I heard about this on Erik Kaselias's show I was floored that Ortiz even said this. Not only did he make himself look like a total baby but he also insulted his team. Bitter is the perfect word for him.
Now as far as the MVP race I had Ortiz leading the race, but with the decline of the Sox and his lack of production lately he's taken a beating and I would vote him in 3rd. If I had a vote it would be for Santana. There is no doubt that Santana has to be leading in the MVP race. But if the Twins start to fade and miss the playoffs then I'd bump Jeter up.

[AS251BR]

It doesn't matter how much you've done for your ball club, the bottom line is, the guy who hits 40 home runs and knocks in 100, that's the guy you know helped your team win games.

"Don't get me wrong -- he's a great player, having a great season, but he's got a lot of guys in that lineup," Ortiz continued. "Top to bottom, you've got a guy who can hurt you. Come hit in this lineup, see how good you can be."

So in his words, Frank Thomas should be MVP. Right?

Thomas 35 HRs, 97 RBIs.

Red Sox 10th in hitting, A's 13th.

A's in 1st place, Red Sox not.

[Beantown's Finest]

Mark, if you want to make the Red Sox SGA a reality let me konw. I work for Coca Cola and I personally know the Marketing Director and he's been looking to something like a SGA. I would of course have to be in conjunction with Coke. Hey Schilling holding a POWERADE BOTTLE WOULD BE NICE....YOU'VE DONE IT WITH NASCAR

[pakalolo2]

Fixed it for ya ;)


Thanks so much! You know, I think you guys are right. Next year, for the sake of Papi winning the MVP, the Sox should forsake defense and play him at first, and perhaps DH Pedroia. I think I'll e-mail Theo right now with this suggestion...


2004...in a row

[BR0NCOS FAN 7]

"It doesn't matter how much you've done for your ball club, the bottom line is, the guy who hits 40 home runs and knocks in 100, that's the guy you know helped your team win games."


Doesn't matter how much you've done"??? I thought thats what the basis of the award was. Jeter is not that top RBI man but the award is MOST VALUABLE PLAYER... As in player a team could not have done without. What does it matter what Ortiz did wen his team dropped out of the race after LOSING to Jeter and the Yankees? Bottom line... Ortiz is a bitter, whining BABY... his team can't win so he figures he should get somethin.

[bigdog0255]

Since he's Less Valuable to his team we shouldn't see the Ortiz 2 figure then!!!

[Mavrik28]

Ortiz isn't even the most valuable player on his own damn team. Manny is still more valuable and a heck of alot better hitter.

He can have the MVP all he wants. Jeter cares all about the rings and he would rather win one for the thumb.

[Mark Weber]

Mark, I have 3 things for you to consider:

1 He does play first base, when needed, but if there's another player better at defense, I think the obvious choice would be to play the better first baseman.

2. To help keep a lineup afloat? I think A Rod, Giambi, Damon, Posada, and Williams had something to do with that, but I guess you don't.

3. This sounds like something that belongs in your little "Yankee/Sox trash thread".

2004...in a row.

pakalolo2 -

1. Do you think maybe Ortiz could work on improving his defense at one of baseball's easiest positions to give his manager enough faith in him to use him in the field more than ten games per year (likely interleague games where he had no choice)?

2. Note that I said that Jeter "helped" keep the ship afloat when Boston should have been padding their division lead. Don't make up arguments to win.

3. It's legitimate news from the front page of ESPN.com - someone else would've posted it if I didn't...

[BlakChamber]

2004...in a row
Can someone explain this? I don't get it.

[Mark Weber]

Much like the rest of that post, it doesn't make sense. :)

[SharpyDave]

Ortiz said if he had a vote, he might cast it for Jermaine Dye or Paul Konerko of the Chicago White Sox, or Justin Morneau of the Minnesota Twins.
"All depends on who makes the playoffs," he said. "Dye is having an unbelievable season, an incredible year. Konerko, too

So Ortiz says he shouldn't be discounted yet he says the MVP he would vote for depends on who makes the playoffs.???

[SharpyDave]

Who should win?

Frank Thomas, Oakland Athletics: .281, 35 HRs, 97 RBI at the moment. He's accounted for something like 38% of the A's offensive production which is incredible and they're still one of the worst offensive teams in baseball so think about where they'd be without him.

How do you get that? He has 132 runs produced, A's have scored 672 runs which equals 19.6% Both Jeter and Dye are better than that.

[mgratton]

pakalolo2 -


3. It's legitimate news from the front page of ESPN.com - someone else would've posted it if I didn't...

It may be legitimate news, but you certainly were very biased by only quoting the half of the article that made Ortiz seem bitter, and leaving out the side that tends to even out a bit what he said.

[Tanner2126]

Jeter, who extended his career high hitting streak to 21 games in the first inning Monday, responded to Ortiz's comments prior to the game.

"I don't have to do it in his lineup," Jeter said. "I'm not thinking about winning the MVP. I'm just thinking about winning the division. No one's focus here is on individual awards. We've got something to play for."

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060911&content_id=1657517&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy

[Reagz]

Papi sayz .... I never miss a buffet table
Papi sayz .... The only glove I need is a batting glove
Papi sayz ... 1st base, its the first one I touch after a hit
Papi sayz .... Play defense, why? I not play no defense
Papi sayz ..... Booohoooo, I no get the MVP again
Papi sayz ..... Make the MVP into MVH (most valuable hitter) and I win in slideland.

[Raines Fuhr]

I don't fault him for answering the question - I'm sure a reporter asked him about it - I doubt if he just started talking about the MVP award out of the blue.

Papi, I've got three points for you to consider:

1. Instead of being bitter about them "voting for a position player, using that as an excuse," why don't you work on your defense to allow Boston some lineup flexibility? Maybe that'll keep Varitek and co. healthy longer into the season. Your defensive inability makes you a permanent DH, and LESS VALUABLE to your team.

2. Saying "Come hit in this lineup, see how good you can be." is a slap at your teammates. Jeter has been the most consistent offensive contributor for New York this season - he helped keep the ship afloat when Matsui and Sheffield got hurt and A-Rod went through his two prolonged slumps. When Varitek and Nixon got hurt, Boston needed Ortiz more than ever and his production slipped instead.

3. On August 1st New York and Boston were tied atop the A.L. East. Boston lost 18 of their next 26 games, including getting swept by Tampa and getting poleaxed by the Yankees five straight at home. During this collapse, Ortiz hit .276 with 16 RBI in 26 games. Those aren't bad numbers, but they aren't MVP numbers either.

I'm not going to hold his medical condition against him - he didn't miss that much time and the divisional damage had already been done.

I agree with you 100% and the way everyone goes on about how the Red Sox have been hit so hard by the injury bug is laughable. They have played without two of their best hitters for most of the year and had A-Rod go through a pretty bad time and they still found away to"CATCH" the Red Sox. Remember everyone, they caught the Red Sox and that was before the Sox started to get hit by the injury bug.

Also, Ortiz doesn't seem to mention that he arguably has the best protection any powere hitter has hitting behing him in Manny. Manny stats are nearly as good and they started to really go in the toilet when Manny was hurt.

[DADDO]

His statements pretty much guarantee that he does not get the award.

[Thoughtful]

I like Papi as much as any fan might, but I am definitely getting tired of what the DH rule brings to baseball. If you play Major League Baseball and want to be considered a real athlete I think you should at least play in the field full-time. If you can't run, can't throw, and can't play defense...well, those are big parts of the game too. Jeter contributes to his team when he is not hitting, and Papi doesn't even TRY to contribute to his team when he is not hitting. I would give Jeter the MVP right now, and Dye would be second.

In the past I have been willing to give DHs the MVP award (not that I have a vote). In truth though I think the DH rule is a bad, bad idea that never should have come to being. I think the DH rule sends a message that you are welcome to be as one-dimensional a player as you want to be as long as you can hit! Baseball is a many faceted game; it is not all about hitting. If you are not a good enough natural athlete to at least TRY to contribute to your team when you are not hitting, I don't think you should be allowed to play.

[northstar37]

10 games behind.....enough said? GO JETER!

[Patriots2421]

[QUOTE=Mark Weber]Reaffirm what? I've been kicking the Red Sox all year in the trash talking thread. In case you missed it:

QUOTE]

My bad, this board can get ugly and even uglier on a trash talk thread, so i tend to stay away from it.
Doesn't this thread technically blong there :D merge :D :D

[Mavrik28]

Everyone knows the MVP award is given to the player with the best stats for the current season. BUT we also all know that a player who is having a killer season and hasnt had prior good seasons will not be strongly considered. Having said that , no writer will admit that prior seasons and (post)seasons have any say in the current mvp race. Ortiz reshaped a city and didnt get the credit he deserved last year. The writers should right their wrong and award ORTIZ the award that was his last year. He will break a franchise record for HR in a season and he helped bring the rings, even though his team isnt playoff material , and his average in down, and he doesnt play the field , blah blah blah. look at that smile , he brings fans to baseball who otherwise wouldnt be. DAVID ORTIZ IS YOUR AL MVP

One ring. He helped the team win ONE ring.

Nice to see David Arias Ortiz throw his teammates under the bus with this comment:
"Come hit in this lineup, see how good you can be."

A man shows his true character when things look bleak and Ortiz showed his true colors.

[Mavrik28]

Godzilla returns tonight. This lineup is just sick:

Damon CF
Jeter SS
Abreu RF
Rodriguez 3B
Giambi 1B
Posada C
Cano 2B
Matsui DH
Melky LF

[pakalolo2]

Much like the rest of that post, it doesn't make sense. :)


Well, I guess I underestimated the Yankee fans intelligence. As a response to the 1918 chants, some Sox fans have come up with their own; 2004.. in a row. Just in case you may have forgotten, the last time Boston played NYY in the ALCS, the Yankees were up 3-0, then Boston won 4 in a row, and this happened in 2004. 2004 (the year) in a row (wins the Sox won over the Yankees).

[Mark Weber]

Now it makes sense. Especially the dwelling on two seasons ago part.

That chant sucks.