OK, lets be serious here. How would another QB strive on the current Patriots team?

[HoosierDaddy]

Is it hard to imagine that any QB that is at least a good QB wouldn't thrive with Bradys weapons this year. What if that was Manning back there? What about Reothlisberger? Palmer? Or any other QB in the NFL that is good to great. If you put them on this years Pats team would they not be looking amazing? Maybe some of them wouldn't be putting up quite the numbers that Brady is but honestly, does anyone think that other QBs wouldn't look amazing surronded by that talent? Great D, great Oline, best recieving corps to ever play in the NFL. Great special teams. This team will likely go down as the best team to ever play the game. But in my opinion it isn't any differant then the Yankees buying a championship. Just because all these elite players decided to give a little on money doesn't mean NE isn't cashing in on buying talent to win another SB. That is just my opinion and I know some will agree and many will flame but I can't help but think about it everytime I see this team play this year. It's like a good college team playing a good highschool team. Even if the highschool team is good they still stand no chance. JMO.
__________________

[dave4243]

Stop. Tom Brady is the best QB in the league, there is no question about it. He makes the receivers, not the other way around. Other QB's have had Randy Moss before... but have never even come close to the way Brady is playing right now.

[littlejacque25]

I think alot of people would take Harrison, Wayne, Stokley Addai and Clark over Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Graham and Maroney

[SanchC]

I think alot of people would take Harrison, Wayne, Stokley Addai and Clark over Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Graham and Maroneyyeah everyone except Manning fans:rolleyes:...I remember the days when Manning fan would say Brady aint s#!+, he couldnt do what Manning does if he was on the Colts.

[SENSin2007]

Is it hard to imagine that any QB that is at least a good QB wouldn't thrive with Bradys weapons this year. What if that was Manning back there? What about Reothlisberger? Palmer? Or any other QB in the NFL that is good to great. If you put them on this years Pats team would they not be looking amazing? Maybe some of them wouldn't be putting up quite the numbers that Brady is but honestly, does anyone think that other QBs wouldn't look amazing surronded by that talent? Great D, great Oline, best recieving corps to ever play in the NFL. Great special teams. This team will likely go down as the best team to ever play the game. But in my opinion it isn't any differant then the Yankees buying a championship. Just because all these elite players decided to give a little on money doesn't mean NE isn't cashing in on buying talent to win another SB. That is just my opinion and I know some will agree and many will flame but I can't help but think about it everytime I see this team play this year. It's like a good college team playing a good highschool team. Even if the highschool team is good they still stand no chance. JMO.
__________________

You whine and complain about something new every week after a dominating Pats win. This is nothing like a college team playing a high school team. All these athletes are pros and every team runs under a salary cap. While the Yankees can pay their team $100mil more than the other baseball teams the Pats can't do that. The team is just great, accept it.

[JayDouble]

I can see what you mean. The funny thing is Brady finally has talent around him and doesn't get credit. When he didn't it was the defense that won it. When does Brady finally get his credit?

I don't think they're buying a champinship. It would be one thing if there was no cap and they could just fork over money like nothing. I think it's more reflective of what type of organization they have that players will take less to go there.

[silversurfur65]

HoosierDaddy your Brady bashing is getting old. I'm not even a Pat's fan but I can respect the fact that he is one of the greatest QB's ever. Brady did lead the league in passing yards in 2005 with mediocre WR's !!

[Frank Barone]

Other elite qb's would put up similar #'s. Average at best qb's would put up better #'s than they normally do. Each of these would have to be based having a vast knowledge of the system.

[dallasstars06]

Is it hard to imagine that any QB that is at least a good QB wouldn't thrive with Bradys weapons this year. What if that was Manning back there? What about Reothlisberger? Palmer? Or any other QB in the NFL that is good to great. If you put them on this years Pats team would they not be looking amazing? Maybe some of them wouldn't be putting up quite the numbers that Brady is but honestly, does anyone think that other QBs wouldn't look amazing surronded by that talent? Great D, great Oline, best recieving corps to ever play in the NFL. Great special teams. This team will likely go down as the best team to ever play the game. But in my opinion it isn't any differant then the Yankees buying a championship. Just because all these elite players decided to give a little on money doesn't mean NE isn't cashing in on buying talent to win another SB. That is just my opinion and I know some will agree and many will flame but I can't help but think about it everytime I see this team play this year. It's like a good college team playing a good highschool team. Even if the highschool team is good they still stand no chance. JMO.
__________________

dude, leave it alone. you need to stop crying.

[dave4243]

Any team who was willing to give up a 3rd rounder could have had Moss. Why are we suddenly acting like Moss makes Brady. It's absurd.

[TRDouble]

There are some QBs that would look pretty darn good under center in New England right now. There are some that would still look pretty bad though. What we are seeing is Brady, who played great with a lesser cast, play... I don't know. Can we say Brady is playing to his potential? A potential allowed him by the players around him? He has always had a great OL, but now he has the WR weapons too. And that is without the greatest running game in the world.

The cast around Brady was the same that was around Drew Bledsoe at one point, a distinction that Tony Romo shares with Brady. Neither team fared as well with Bledsoe. Dallas is just getting started, but over time, the Pats became built around Brady and what he can do, so while I think the Mannings and Palmers would have great success in New England, I don't think they would be as successful as Brady, just like many QBs would not hve been as successful as Manning if they were to immediately replace him in Indy.

And many of these players NE stockpiles -- Moss, Dillion -- even some of the draft picks, no one else wanted very much. Other teams wanted Moss? Then why didn't they give up a 3rd rounder for him? Other teams are stupid. Wes Welker would probably have helped Miami to at least one win this season.

[littlejacque25]

Any team who was willing to give up a 3rd rounder could have had Moss. Why are we suddenly acting like Moss makes Brady. It's absurd.

He did make Johnson, Cunningham, George and Culpepper, but Brady was already a 3x SB Champ before Moss came to town.

[RickyWilliams34]

Oh, so Culpepper a few years ago was garbage when he would have been MVP if not for Manning's record setting season? He had no complimentary receivers either. Don't believe he had that kind of an o-line or a running game. Wait.......did I just prove you wrong? I think I didStop. Tom Brady is the best QB in the league, there is no question about it. He makes the receivers, not the other way around. Other QB's have had Randy Moss before... but have never even come close to the way Brady is playing right now.

[RoninJai]

But in my opinion it isn't any differant then the Yankees buying a championship. Just because all these elite players decided to give a little on money doesn't mean NE isn't cashing in on buying talent to win another SB.

"...what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

:D Go Steelers

[SanchC]

Any team who was willing to give up a 3rd rounder could have had Moss. Why are we suddenly acting like Moss makes Brady. It's absurd.werent they falling over themselves trying to do that? Damn those Raiders sure drive a hard bargain.

[Frank Barone]

Any team who was willing to give up a 3rd rounder could have had Moss. Why are we suddenly acting like Moss makes Brady. It's absurd.

Brady wouldn't be as productive if it were Stallworth, Welker, Gaffney or Bug Eye Caldwell. Moss is the cherry on top and is what makes the offense so deadly.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

Any team who was willing to give up a 3rd rounder could have had Moss. Why are we suddenly acting like Moss makes Brady. It's absurd.

Also, let's not hype up Gaffney, Stallworth and Welker, none of these guys have ever had a 1,000+ yard season, none of them had ever had a 10 TD+ season so they aren't great receivers, they just look great with Brady. Plus, Maroney hasn't accomplished anything in his brief NFL career, he looks like a glorified 3rd down back right now so let's not overstate his role on this team. As for Moss, he's an enigma, he could have had a pro bowl season or he could have been a disruption, the point is the Patriots gave up nothing for him so they didn't really care and the move paid off. My point is, Gaffney was their number one receiver towards the end of the season and they almost got to the Super Bowl and guys like Branch, Givens, Smith, Patten have had success with this team with the one constant being Brady. I hate the Patriots, I hate that they cheated, I hate that they run up the score, but let's give Brady credit, he's had to deal with an incredible amount of roster turnover (especially at WR), MUCH more than any other great QB ever has had to deal with and his numbers have been very good.

[SanchC]

Oh, so Culpepper a few years ago was garbage when he would have been MVP if not for Manning's record setting season? He had no complimentary receivers either. Don't believe he had that kind of an o-line or a running game. Wait.......did I just prove you wrong? I think I did8-8 wont win you MVP, and was Randy even a Pro Bowler that year? He didnt even have the most catches and I would argue a #2 wr with 1000 yards and 9tds was way past "complimentary"...Birk (OL) also made the pro bowl that year too...and a bunch of RB's with high yard-per-carry averages so they were pretty good on offensive in 2004.

[HoosierDaddy]

I didn't mean this as a Brady bash. I was just simply asking, what would other great QBs do in NE right now. I have no doubt in my mind that a Manning, Big Ben or Palmer just to name a few will put up just as much. That's what I'm saying.

[HoosierDaddy]

Are you Pats fans actually downplaying the importance and utter greatness of Randy Moss? I've seen you guys throw other Pats players under the bus but this one takes the cake. I mean, seriously are you guys kidding?

[SENSin2007]

I didn't mean this as a Brady bash. I was just simply asking, what would other great QBs do in NE right now. I have no doubt in my mind that a Manning, Big Ben or Palmer just to name a few will put up just as much. That's what I'm saying.

You can't know that for sure. Manning has had the same type of weapons the past few years and his best season was 2004. Maybe that is his ceiling and he wouldn't do any better with this group of Patriots.

[SanchC]

Are you Pats fans actually downplaying the importance and utter greatness of Randy Moss? I've seen you guys throw other Pats players under the bus but this one takes the cake. I mean, seriously are you guys kidding?no difference than you of Marvin Harrison.

[SanchC]

You can't know that for sure. Manning has had the same type of weapons the past few years and his best season was 2004. Maybe that is his ceiling and he wouldn't do any better with this group of Patriots.Thats what Ive kept saying the Colts have had this kind of offensive team for the last 5 years.

[littlejacque25]

I didn't mean this as a Brady bash. I was just simply asking, what would other great QBs do in NE right now. I have no doubt in my mind that a Manning, Big Ben or Palmer just to name a few will put up just as much. That's what I'm saying.

Why doesn't Manning do it on a yearly basis then? Look at his weapons and look at Brady's. They are pretty much equal with a slight edge to Indy because they have had better runningbacks.

[RickyWilliams34]

Brady doesn't have to make great throws for Moss to come down with it and Manning pretty much always did. Peyton has never had an o-line like the PatsYou can't know that for sure. Manning has had the same type of weapons the past few years and his best season was 2004. Maybe that is his ceiling and he wouldn't do any better with this group of Patriots.

[HoosierDaddy]

no difference than you of Marvin Harrison.I simply said Harrison is no Moss and explained the shortcommings why. I still stand by that statement and it is legitamate.

[SENSin2007]

Are you Pats fans actually downplaying the importance and utter greatness of Randy Moss? I've seen you guys throw other Pats players under the bus but this one takes the cake. I mean, seriously are you guys kidding?

No one is denying Moss's greatness. But did you take away from Montana or Young's performance because of Rice? or Manning's because of harrison? or any great qb with a great receiver?

It just seems like whatever Brady does it's always some other aspect that should get credited for it. Whether it be the defense, the kicker, o-line, receivers. Brady is great and he is on pace to have the greatest season in NFL history. There's no arguing that.

[SanchC]

I simply said Harrison is no Moss and explained the shortcommings why. I still stand by that statement and it is legitamate.you can honestly tell me that ANYONE would have trade Marvin Harrison for Randy Moss at the beginning of this year? I remeber Pats haters laughing at Moss going to "disrupt" the Pats.

[SENSin2007]

Brady doesn't have to make great throws for Moss to come down with it and Manning pretty much always did. Peyton has never had an o-line like the Pats

Manning's o-line has been great for him. He's one of the least sacked qbs in the league. But for some reason Manning gets all the credit and in Brady's case we should give the credit to the o-line.

[NotoriousVesaToskala]

I didn't mean this as a Brady bash. I was just simply asking, what would other great QBs do in NE right now. I have no doubt in my mind that a Manning, Big Ben or Palmer just to name a few will put up just as much. That's what I'm saying.

Why would you ask something like that? Guys like Manning and Palmer already have better wide receiver corps than Brady does (when everybody is healthy or not serving suspensions) so to pose a question like this is pointless, they are what they are.

[RickyWilliams34]

You are right on saying that. Harrison is one of my favorite players but I can easily say he has nothing on Moss the way Moss is playing right now.I simply said Harrison is no Moss and explained the shortcommings why. I still stand by that statement and it is legitamate.

[littlejacque25]

Peyton has never had an o-line like the Pats

Uhhh... I won't even respond to that idiotic post. Its like Brady haters are scratching for anything to make him worse than Manning.

[almostimpos]

Is Peyton Manning a great qb without Marvin Harrison? A lot of people are saying that Manning would do better if he had Marvin Harrison and I agree but he has had plenty of time to adjust not having Harrison in the lineup. I never thought Manning would be good if you just threw him on a poor team. You throw off his routine and he struggles.

[SENSin2007]

Uhhh... I won't even respond to that idiotic post. Its like Brady haters are scratching for anything to make him worse than Manning.

they are in denial and can't accept the greatness.

[HoosierDaddy]

you can honestly tell me that ANYONE would have trade Marvin Harrison for Randy Moss at the beginning of this year? I remeber Pats haters laughing at Moss going to "disrupt" the Pats.
The ONLY reason nobody wanted Moss is because of his attitude and past that has torn teams apart. NOBODY has doubted that he is probably the best pure reciever to play the game. He runs perfect route, has great hands and is tall enough to push off and get higher then the DB and get the ball. If you guys can't see why Harrison doesn't compare to that then I'm not sure what else to tell you. It seems you guy lie to yourdselves to twist things around. You are so desperate to make Brady better then Maning that you guys have no problem throwing your own teams players under the bus to make them seem irrelevant. No Colts fan has downplayed Harrison. He is great at what he does. But he is no Moss. He isn't going to get those jump balls in the end zone. In order for Harrison to have success he relies on Manning putting the ball where it needs to be for him to get it. He has good hands and runs good routes. Moss dwarfs him on everything else.

[littlejacque25]

He is on pace to shatter the TD record and that is all Manning has on Brady right now.

[SanchC]

You are so desperate to make Brady better then Maning that you guys have no problem throwing your own teams players under the bus to make them seem irrelevant. No Colts fan has downplayed Harrison. He is great at what he does. But he is no Moss. He isn't going to get those jump balls in the end zone. In order for Harrison to have success he relies on Manning putting the ball where it needs to be for him to get it. He has good hands and runs good routes. Moss dwarfs him on everything else.never seen Brady chew out his O-line like Ive seen Peyton....who's desperate? how many threads have you started trying to dis-credit Brady.:eek:...its not hard for Manning to put the ball where Harrison "needs it" when Harrison is usually wide freakin open.

[littlejacque25]

NOBODY has doubted that he is probably the best pure reciever to play the game.

I started a thread on this a month or so back and I got ripped by about 90% of the board. So I disagree. I said he was the most dominant wide receiver to ever play.

[HoosierDaddy]

Manning's o-line has been great for him. He's one of the least sacked qbs in the league. But for some reason Manning gets all the credit and in Brady's case we should give the credit to the o-line.
We've been through this before. Manning quick release is the main reason he avoids sacks. Anytime a good blitzing D plays the Colts Manning has defenders in his face. Brady seems to have all day reguardless.

[HoosierDaddy]

I started a thread on this a month or so back and I got ripped by about 90% of the board. So I disagree. I said he was the most dominant wide receiver to ever play.
When he was playing for the Viking the board would overwhelmingly agree with that and I know because I seen it. Problen is they are trying to downplay Moss in order to make Brady look better.

[Ghost of AA62]

Stop. Tom Brady is the best QB in the league, there is no question about it.

this season, yeah no doubt.

I think alot of people would take Harrison, Wayne, Stokley Addai and Clark over Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Graham and Maroney

yeah I agree....and Manning won a Superbowl with them. I understand people vying for Brady's supremacy this season. The man is on fire. What I can't understand is people vying for Peyton being termed overrated based on his performance these last two games.
Let me put it this way and propose a scenerio.

Let's say the Colts managed to hold on and defeated the Pats 20-17 two weeks ago.
Now let's say the Pats lost Randy Moss since their 5th game, with Moss gone until December.
Now let's say the Pats lost Matt Light since their 7th game, but he is expected to return in a few weeks - in his place for those few weeks they use a tackling dummy at LT.
Now let's say the Pats lost Ben Watson since their 9th game and Richard Seymour for the season; Watson is gone for the 9th game only.
Now let's say that both Donte Stallworth and Nick Kazcur went down in todays game....

do you know what you get? The current Indianapolis Colts, with Brady putting up similar numbers to Manning.

[Ghost of AA62]

He is on pace to shatter the TD record and that is all Manning has on Brady right now.
:rolleyes:

yeah and the many years he's been the better QB

[silversurfur65]

Hoosier...did Brady shoot your dog or something. I have never seen anyone try and discredit someone like you do. Every week after Brady dismantles the oppisition, you make excuses. Suck it up, he is a phenomimal QB and no matter what you say will change that. If he retires today, he is a 1st ballot HOF'er.
Maybe if he was the Steeler's QB, you'd see things a little different !!

[TastySweetNutz]

God will this ever end?!?! I unfortunately watched tonight's game and was disgusted with how easy Brady makes it look. I don't think that any other QB would be able to duplicate the numbers that Brady is putting up now on that team. Brady has had the luxury of having the same system in place and knows every in and out of every play. The comfort that he exudes in the pocket just screams how well he knows the system and where all of his guys should be. Yeah it helps having a talent like Moss to throw to, but he surely didn't make Brooks or Walters any better. I've always thought that Manning was a better QB, but it's so hard to argue who is better after seeing what Brady is doing this year.

Watching how Moss is performing just makes me wonder what he could've done with Favre if the Packers had gone after him. That's a match-up that I would've love to have seen.

[SENSin2007]

this season, yeah no doubt.



yeah I agree....and Manning won a Superbowl with them. I understand people vying for Brady's supremacy this season. The man is on fire. What I can't understand is people vying for Peyton being termed overrated based on his performance these last two games.
Let me put it this way and propose a scenerio.

Let's say the Colts managed to hold on and defeated the Pats 20-17 two weeks ago.
Now let's say the Pats lost Randy Moss since their 5th game, with Moss gone until December.
Now let's say the Pats lost Matt Light since their 7th game, but he is expected to return in a few weeks - in his place for those few weeks they use a tackling dummy at LT.
Now let's say the Pats lost Ben Watson since their 9th game and Richard Seymour for the season; Watson is gone for the 9th game only.
Now let's say that both Donte Stallworth and Nick Kazcur went down in todays game....

do you know what you get? The current Indianapolis Colts, with Brady putting up similar numbers to Manning.

Yet when the Pats had numerous injuries the last few seasons in the games they lost to the Colts injuries were a poor excuse by Pats fans and Manning showed his superiority over Brady.

There's a huge bouble standard from Manning supporters and pats fans aren't putting down the rest of the Pats, they're just giving credit to Brady the same way manning and every otehr great qb in history has been given credit for htier team's success.

[littlejacque25]

:rolleyes:



Truth hurts.

[HoosierDaddy]

Hoosier...did Brady shoot your dog or something. I have never seen anyone try and discredit someone like you do. Every week after Brady dismantles the oppisition, you make excuses. Suck it up, he is a phenomimal QB and no matter what you say will change that. If he retires today, he is a 1st ballot HOF'er.
Maybe if he was the Steeler's QB, you'd see things a little different !!
I'm not trying to discredit Brady as much as I'm trying get the NE fans back to Earth and just because Brady is having a phenominal season doesn't make him better then Manning. In order to prove my point of course I'm going to bring up the downfalls.

[Ghost of AA62]

Why doesn't Manning do it on a yearly basis then? Look at his weapons and look at Brady's. They are pretty much equal with a slight edge to Indy because they have had better runningbacks

Manning has been it on a regular basis the last 4-5 years

Manning
2003 Indianapolis 16 99.0 67.0 4267 266.7 7.5 29 10
2004 Indianapolis 16 121.1 67.6 4557 284.8 9.2 49 10
2005 Indianapolis 16 104.1 67.3 3747 234.2 8.3 28 10
2006 Indianapolis 16 101.0 65.0 4397 274.8 7.9 31 9

Brady
2003 New England 16 85.9 60.2 3620 226.3 6.9 23 12
2004 New England 16 92.6 60.8 3692 230.8 7.8 28 14
2005 New England 16 92.3 63.0 4110 256.9 7.8 26 14
2006 New England 16 87.9 61.8 3529 220.6 6.8 24 12

Over the last four comparable years, Manning has been the better QB. You give Manning a defense, he wins a Superbowl. You give Brady some receivers, he's "paced" to win a superbowl. That said I cannot deny that Brady is a phenomenal QB, but I still believe Manning is the better QB. This is coming from a Titans remember, and I would like to think my perspective is free from a bias.

[littlejacque25]

I'm not trying to discredit Brady as much as I'm trying get the NE fans back to Earth and just because Brady is having a phenominal season doesn't make him better then Manning. In order to prove my point of course I'm going to bring up the downfalls.

They are 10-0 winning a majority of those games in impressive fashion. NE fans have a right to be flying on cloud 9. He is going to win the MVP, break records along the way and more than likely bring home a 4th title.

[Ghost of AA62]

what truth...last time I checked Manning and the Colts are still the defending champs on pace to another solid season. And last time I checked, Brady hasn't broken the record yet.

[SanchC]

:rolleyes:

yeah and the many years he's been the better QBBrady was better in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005 and so far 2007.....I know what your saying look at the stats...I did and were amazed that it was even close for those years with the talent Brady had...I mean comeone he didnt even have a receiver the calibre of Wayne.

[crushercreel]

Anyway How bout them Steelers?

[littlejacque25]

Manning has been it on a regular basis the last 4-5 years

Manning
2003 Indianapolis 16 99.0 67.0 4267 266.7 7.5 29 10
2004 Indianapolis 16 121.1 67.6 4557 284.8 9.2 49 10
2005 Indianapolis 16 104.1 67.3 3747 234.2 8.3 28 10
2006 Indianapolis 16 101.0 65.0 4397 274.8 7.9 31 9

Brady
2003 New England 16 85.9 60.2 3620 226.3 6.9 23 12
2004 New England 16 92.6 60.8 3692 230.8 7.8 28 14
2005 New England 16 92.3 63.0 4110 256.9 7.8 26 14
2006 New England 16 87.9 61.8 3529 220.6 6.8 24 12

Over the last four comparable years, Manning has been the better QB. You give Manning a defense, he wins a Superbowl. You give Brady some receivers, he's "paced" to win a superbowl.

Manning had receivers each of those years, Brady just had a defense so of course his numbers won't be as high. Giving Manning a defense does not help his numbers like a good wr corps does.

[silversurfur65]

Manning has been it on a regular basis the last 4-5 years

Manning
2003 Indianapolis 16 99.0 67.0 4267 266.7 7.5 29 10
2004 Indianapolis 16 121.1 67.6 4557 284.8 9.2 49 10
2005 Indianapolis 16 104.1 67.3 3747 234.2 8.3 28 10
2006 Indianapolis 16 101.0 65.0 4397 274.8 7.9 31 9

Brady
2003 New England 16 85.9 60.2 3620 226.3 6.9 23 12
2004 New England 16 92.6 60.8 3692 230.8 7.8 28 14
2005 New England 16 92.3 63.0 4110 256.9 7.8 26 14
2006 New England 16 87.9 61.8 3529 220.6 6.8 24 12

Over the last four comparable years, Manning has been the better QB. You give Manning a defense, he wins a Superbowl. You give Brady some receivers, he's "paced" to win a superbowl.

Manning has had Harrison, Wayne,Clark,Edge and Addai for all those years.Name me the cast of rotating offensive weapons Brady has had till this year !!

[Ghost of AA62]

Yet when the Pats had numerous injuries the last few seasons in the games they lost to the Colts injuries were a poor excuse by Pats fans and Manning showed his superiority over Brady.

yeah the funny thing was when Indy played NE the last two seasons with all of NE's injuries, Indy SANDBLASTED the Pats. This season, minus Harrison, Ugoh, Diem, Fletcher, Brackett, Keiaho and the Pats barely got by the Colts.

[littlejacque25]

yeah the funny thing was when Indy played NE the last two seasons with all of NE's injuries, Indy SANDBLASTED the Pats. This season, minus Harrison, Ugoh, Diem, Fletcher, Brackett, Keiaho and the Pats barely got by the Colts.

Who won that game? barely or not...

[SENSin2007]

yeah the funny thing was when Indy played NE the last two seasons with all of NE's injuries, Indy SANDBLASTED the Pats. This season, minus Harrison, Ugoh, Diem, Fletcher, Brackett, Keiaho and the Pats barely got by the Colts.

missing most of your secondary will cause that to happen.

[HoosierDaddy]

Anyway How bout them Steelers?
Guess you'll see about then Steelers in a few weeks.

[SanchC]

You give Manning a defense, he wins a Superbowl. You give Brady some receivers, he's "paced" to win a superbowl. That said I cannot deny that Brady is a phenomenal QB, but I still believe Manning is the better QB. This is coming from a Titans remember, and I would like to think my perspective is free from a bias.I'm a Cowboys fan....Manning has always had a defense...its just the offense didnt show up for the playoffs failures.

[littlejacque25]

Manning has had Harrison, Wayne,Clark,Edge and Addai for all those years.Name me the cast of rotating offensive weapons Brady has had till this year !!

It will take a while to look up all of those receivers. Caldwell, Brown, Gabriel, Branch, Gaffney...

[Ghost of AA62]

Name me the cast of rotating offensive weapons Brady has had till this year !!


while I agree Manning has had some great weapons, don't pretend like New England didn't have some solid players on offensive - Corey Dillon was huge in 2003/4 and so integral to their success that season. Deion Branch was a solid receiver, as was David Givens (who since been traded to the Titans has been plagued with injuries). Troy Brown was a good receiver and David wasn't bad. Most importantly, that defense in 2003 and 2004 allowed Brady and the offense to control the game, while Manning as the offense were singlehandedly compensating for their defense all those years

[Ghost of AA62]

missing most of your secondary will cause that to happen.

and missing Marvin Harrison and Tony Ugoh would also happen to factor into the Colts loss to the Pats this season.

well great teams perservere right?

[HoosierDaddy]

I'm a Cowboys fan....Manning has always had a defense...its just the offense didnt show up for the playoffs failures.
You're joking right? About the Colts having a good D until the end of last year and this year. Please tell me you aren't serious.

[madden821]

while I agree Manning has had some great weapons, don't pretend like New England didn't have some solid players on offensive - Corey Dillon was huge in 2003/4 and so integral to their success that season. Deion Branch was a solid receiver, as was David Givens (who since been traded to the Titans has been plagued with injuries). Troy Brown was a good receiver and David wasn't bad. Most importantly, that defense in 2003 and 2004 allowed Brady and the offense to control the game, while Manning as the offense were singlehandedly compensating for their defense all those years


I have to agree a little. Its not like Brady was throwing to the little sisters of the poor all those years. If you put Brady in Miami now he couldn't do anything. Brady is a great player but not the total and complete GOD that you all want him to be... he didn't win those SB's alone.

[SENSin2007]

You're joking right? About the Colts having a good D until the end of last year and this year. Please tell me you aren't serious.

usually when the colts D holds opponents to around 20 points they win. but how many times did Manning and hte offense put up under 20 points in big playoff games to lose. The D did its part, the offense did not.

[orionquest]

HD, I understand the point that you're making, but I believe the answer is simply "no." Some quarterbacks could thrive at his level within the Patriots system, but most couldn't. Belichick and his staff choose their players quite carefully, and they draft or sign based on aptitude and attitude as much as talent.

Surely, Manning could thrive, just as Brady would thrive with Manning's team. But I don't think that most NFL QBs would perform at the same level. Belichick chose Brady over Bledsoe back in 2001 because he felt that Brady's ability to read defenses, his understanding of the position and work ethic were superior to Bledsoe's. I think that Brady's achievements, both with this current squad and the previous ones, have demonstrated just how great his skills and work ethic are.

Now, while I know that your question isn't meant as an insult or a slight in any way, I hope that you can understand how it may be perceived that way. We Patriots fans feel like we're having our team bashed from every place we look. A question that asks if any other NFL QB slipped into Brady's current spot would thrive can easily be taken as a commentary that our star quarterback is overrated, even if I know that it is not your intent.

I think a better question to ask would be whether QBs like Brady or Manning would thrive as well on teams that fall a few notches below. How would Manning play on the Browns? Could Brady elevate the Redskins? Would the Cardinals move up a notch with Rothlisberger?

Unfortunately, we can never get satisfactory answers to these questions. But, it sure is fun to argue about them! :D

[SENSin2007]

and missing Marvin Harrison and Tony Ugoh would also happen to factor into the Colts loss to the Pats this season.

well great teams perservere right?

exactly and my point is the Colts injuries were the reason the Pats won while Manning and his offense were the reason the Colts won. Double standard.

[SanchC]

Most importantly, that defense in 2003 and 2004 allowed Brady and the offense to control the game, while Manning as the offense were singlehandedly compensating for their defense all those yearsso the Pats D giving up 3 4th quarter TD's in SB vs Panthers allowed Brady to control the game? Terrell Owens was abusing the NE D in 2004....allowed Brady to control the game...Manning singlehandedly compensated for the defense? Did he block for himself, throw it to himself as well? How about if he just mustered up enough offense would have done the trick all those years, instead Manning and Harrison were usually shut-down.

[Ghost of AA62]

I'm a Cowboys fan....Manning has always had a defense...its just the offense didnt show up for the playoffs failures.

:eek:

1999
- lost to the Titans 16-19

2000
- lost to the Dolphins 20-23

2001
- missed playoffs

2002
- lost 41-0 to the Jets

2003
- defeated the Broncos 41-10
- defeated the Chiefs 38-31
- lost to the Patriots 14-24

2004
- defeated the Broncos 49-24
- lost to the Patriots 3-20

2005
- lost to Steelers 18-21

[SENSin2007]

:eek:

1999
- lost to the Titans 16-19

2000
- lost to the Dolphins 20-23

2001
- missed playoffs

2002
- lost 41-0 to the Jets

2003
- defeated the Broncos 41-10
- defeated the Chiefs 38-31
- lost to the Patriots 14-24

2004
- defeated the Broncos 49-24
- lost to the Patriots 3-20

2005
- lost to Steelers 18-21

defense did its part in most of those losses. defense played better than they did in the regular season while the offense under performed.

[SanchC]

:eek:

1999
- lost to the Titans 16-19

2000
- lost to the Dolphins 20-23

2001
- missed playoffs

2002
- lost 41-0 to the Jets

2003
- defeated the Broncos 41-10
- defeated the Chiefs 38-31
- lost to the Patriots 14-24

2004
- defeated the Broncos 49-24
- lost to the Patriots 3-20

2005
- lost to Steelers 18-21thanks for proving my point, look at all those years the Colts were juggernaught on offense, but sputtered in the playoffs...going into 2004 with all the talk about the passing record if you would have said to any Colts fan New England can only score 20 point will you guys win? Broncos had a decent D and you hung 49 on them, but could only muster a measly 3 against the Pats....come on didnt the Eagles get at least 21 on that D and they had a sick McNabb and Owens on one leg(?).

[orionquest]

I'm not trying to discredit Brady as much as I'm trying get the NE fans back to Earth and just because Brady is having a phenominal season doesn't make him better then Manning. In order to prove my point of course I'm going to bring up the downfalls.

HD, I feel that I need to ask you politely and with the highest level of respect: Please, please let the Manning/Brady argument go. There is no winner. There never, ever will be. Each and every point that you or anyone else makes on either side has a valid and sustainable counterargument.

Enjoy this era. Soak in every moment of two of the best all-time quarterbacks embraced in a heated rivalry and frequently playing head-to-head. Plus, Manning's NFL background legacy and Brady's 4th-round draft selection brings more drama to the story! Elway, Marino and Montana didn't get to battle this often. Neither did Staubach and Bradshaw. We're blessed to keep watching something special, and it doesn't need to be quantified so specifically.

[Ghost of AA62]

HD, I understand the point that you're making, but I believe the answer is simply "no." Some quarterbacks could thrive at his level within the Patriots system, but most couldn't. Belichick and his staff choose their players quite carefully, and they draft or sign based on aptitude and attitude as much as talent.

Surely, Manning could thrive, just as Brady would thrive with Manning's team. But I don't think that most NFL QBs would perform at the same level. Belichick chose Brady over Bledsoe back in 2001 because he felt that Brady's ability to read defenses, his understanding of the position and work ethic were superior to Bledsoe's. I think that Brady's achievements, both with this current squad and the previous ones, have demonstrated just how great his skills and work ethic are.

Now, while I know that your question isn't meant as an insult or a slight in any way, I hope that you can understand how it may be perceived that way. We Patriots fans feel like we're having our team bashed from every place we look. A question that asks if any other NFL QB slipped into Brady's current spot would thrive can easily be taken as a commentary that our star quarterback is overrated, even if I know that it is not your intent.

I think a better question to ask would be whether QBs like Brady or Manning would thrive as well on teams that fall a few notches below. How would Manning play on the Browns? Could Brady elevate the Redskins? Would the Cardinals move up a notch with Rothlisberger?

Unfortunately, we can never get satisfactory answers to these questions. But, it sure is fun to argue about them!


as always an intelligent post OQ.

exactly and my point is the Colts injuries were the reason the Pats won while Manning and his offense were the reason the Colts won. Double standard.

to be fair I would say the Colts did win those games because they were the better team those two years. While I believe the Pats are better right now and deservedly won that game (it was a great game by two great teams). I don't think its a double standard at all. Injuries certainly factor into wins, but should never be the excuse. Tts a matter a perservering. My point about using analogies between the Colts and Pats was to address Peyton Mannings' performance as of late, not a knock on Brady.

[Ghost of AA62]

Broncos had a decent D and you hung 49 on them

you mean they...I hate the Colts...:p

[HoosierDaddy]

usually when the colts D holds opponents to around 20 points they win. but how many times did Manning and hte offense put up under 20 points in big playoff games to lose. The D did its part, the offense did not.

Here is a little list on how the D let them down all but once or twice.


2002 Colts D allows the Jets to stay on the feild the whole game and when the Offense isn't out there they can't score points. The Colts D gives up time of possesion and points
Colts 0 - Jets 41

2004
Colts 41 - Denver 24 d gave up over 20 points
Colts 38 - KC 31. Had to score 38 points just to make up for the D giving up 31
Colts 14 - Pats 24. Again the D lets them down and the Pats win time of possesion and ultimately the game.

2004
Colts 49 - Denver 24 Colts D gives up more then 20 and without the high powered offense team would have a hard time with 24 points. Colts O pulls them out AGAIN.
Colts 3 - Pats 20. This one was the offenses fault

2005
Steelers 21 - Colts 18 tough game, bad reffing and the Steelers prevailed a close on. If the Colts actually had a D they would have won this game.

2006 the year the Colts D comes alive!
Colts 23 - Chiefs 8
Colts 15 - Ravens 6
Colts 38 - Pats 34 Colts O bailed out the D that failed again
Colts 29 - Bears 17. this game wasn't near as close as the final score.

[HoosierDaddy]

HD, I feel that I need to ask you politely and with the highest level of respect: Please, please let the Manning/Brady argument go. There is no winner. There never, ever will be. Each and every point that you or anyone else makes on either side has a valid and sustainable counterargument.

Enjoy this era. Soak in every moment of two of the best all-time quarterbacks embraced in a heated rivalry and frequently playing head-to-head. Plus, Manning's NFL background legacy and Brady's 4th-round draft selection brings more drama to the story! Elway, Marino and Montana didn't get to battle this often. Neither did Staubach and Bradshaw. We're blessed to keep watching something special, and it doesn't need to be quantified so specifically.
Well, I agree but I was alway in the middle of the Marino/Montana debates and many of those still float around. This is a debate that will never go away and most likely not even after they retire unless something tragic happens to one of them. But Staughback and Bradshaw did actually have quite the rivalry. Bradshaw always winning of course.;)

[Ghost of AA62]

Colts 38 - Pats 34 Colts O bailed out the D that failed again
Colts 29 - Bears 17. this game wasn't near as close as the final score.

god that AFC championship game was possibly the most exciting NFL playoff game I had ever seen...and yeah the score for XLI doesn't indicate how much better the Colts were...could have easily easily been in the 40s-17

[SanchC]

Here is a little list on how the D let them down all but once or twice.


2002 Colts D allows the Jets to stay on the feild the whole game and when the Offense isn't out there they can score points. The Colts D gives up time of possesion and points
Colts 0 - Jets 41
yet when the Colts drop 32 on the Pats in ONE HALF it was because BRADY did not do enough to keep the Pats offense on the field:rolleyes:...next...how can you not blame the offense as well?



2003
Colts 41 - Denver 24 d gave up over 20 points
Colts 38 - KC 31. Had to score 38 points just to make up for the D giving up 31
Colts 14 - Pats 24. Again the D lets them down and the Pats win time of possesion and ultimately the game.

4 interception had nothing to do with only putting up 14 points? Come on you guys put up 41, then 38, then blame your D and the refs if I recall correctly (causing the NFL to put in a no contact rule for receivers:rolleyes:)...the Pats D was good , but Carolina put up 29 on them...including THREE TD's in the 4th which Brady helped the D overcome with 2 70(ish) yard TD drives in the 4th...so your O has to chip in sometimes.


2004
Colts 49 - Denver 24 Colts D gives up more then 20 and without the high powered offense team would have a hard time with 24 points. Colts O pulls them out AGAIN.
Colts 3 - Pats 20. This one was the offenses fault

2005
Steelers 21 - Colts 18 tough game, bad reffing and the Steelers prevailed a close on. If the Colts actually had a D they would have won this game.

2006 the year the Colts D comes alive!
Colts 23 - Chiefs 8
Colts 15 - Ravens 6
Colts 38 - Pats 34 Colts O bailed out the D that failed again
Colts 29 - Bears 17. this game wasn't near as close as the final score.2004 is unanimous, 2005 the O got a gift from Polamalu for a long TD ,THE CALL (that was an INT) and Bettis fumble made the closer than it appeared...and if you had a kicker you would have won the D did its job in '05....2006...D bailed out Manning in the earlier 2 games, so only fitting that he helped bail them out againts NE.

[HoosierDaddy]

bottom line is we all know the Pats are gonna win it all this year, set records and go down as the greatest team ever. but one season does not instantly accelerate Brady past Manning. You can be sure one thing when these debates come up, the talent around Brady will always be a factor when they are choosing best QB. just the way it is.

[Ghost of AA62]

bottom line is we all know the Pats are gonna win it all this year


I don't think so.
I'm just putting it out there because I have been fantasizing about it :D

Lets just say, just hypothetically, in a remote possibility of potentially happening...the Titans make the playoffs and knock off the Pats...would it be the greatest upset in history (i.e.: greater than 1980 Lake Placcid???)

[ruggerx]

I don't even know why I read more than one post of this assinine thread. The funny thing is that I was going to post today that this season should end the who's better argument once and for all- Ton Brady is the best QB since Montana, and he may be the best ever before all is said and done.

Manning and his one SB don't hold up to Brady's 3, and not one reciever Brady had on those 3 teams was even as good as Reggie Wayne, much less Harrison. Manning put up huge numbers with 2 number 1 picks at WR, 1 at TE, 1 at RB (2, if you count Edge), and one at LT. How many #1s did Brady work with before this season?

Now Brady has a star-studded cast (although none but Moss ever performed this well, and even he had disappeared for the last couple of years), and he's putting up huge numbers to go with dominating wins. What's Manning doing without a couple of his pieces? Throwing 6 picks? Putting up 13 against the Chiefs?

Manning plays at least half his games every year in a dome; Brady plays his outside in frickin' New England. And another in wintry Buffalo. And another in rainy Miami. And another in the Meadowlands wind tunnel.

The debate is over: Tom Brady is the best.

Jesus.:rolleyes:

[HoosierDaddy]

bottom line is we all know the Pats are gonna win it all this year, set records and go down as the greatest team ever. but one season does not instantly accelerate Brady past Manning. You can be sure one thing when these debates come up, the talent around Brady will always be a factor when they are choosing best QB. just the way it is.:cool: :cool:

I don't even know why I read more than one post of this assinine thread. The funny thing is that I was going to post today that this season should end the who's better argument once and for all- Ton Brady is the best QB since Montana, and he may be the best ever before all is said and done.

Manning and his one SB don't hold up to Brady's 3, and not one reciever Brady had on those 3 teams was even as good as Reggie Wayne, much less Harrison. Manning put up huge numbers with 2 number 1 picks at WR, 1 at TE, 1 at RB (2, if you count Edge), and one at LT. How many #1s did Brady work with before this season?

Now Brady has a star-studded cast (although none but Moss ever performed this well, and even he had disappeared for the last couple of years), and he's putting up huge numbers to go with dominating wins. What's Manning doing without a couple of his pieces? Throwing 6 picks? Putting up 13 against the Chiefs?

Manning plays at least half his games every year in a dome; Brady plays his outside in frickin' New England. And another in wintry Buffalo. And another in rainy Miami. And another in the Meadowlands wind tunnel.

The debate is over: Tom Brady is the best.

Jesus.:rolleyes:BTW, Bradshaw is tied for best QB ever with his 4 rings, right? And Dilfer is better then Marino because he has a ring and Marino doesn't right?

[Ghost of AA62]

Manning and his one SB don't hold up to Brady's 3, and not one reciever Brady had on those 3 teams was even as good as Reggie Wayne, much less Harrison. Manning put up huge numbers with 2 number 1 picks at WR, 1 at TE, 1 at RB (2, if you count Edge), and one at LT. How many #1s did Brady work with before this season?


and Brady had his defense all those years :D And you forget, while the Colts groomed their players, the Pats basically brought guys in. I'm not knocking the Pats, but its amazing what Indy did with their offensive unit all those years.

What's Manning doing without a couple of his pieces? Throwing 6 picks? Putting up 13 against the Chiefs?


you put Brady with the Colts right now, guaranteed he would struggle muchless put up the numbers he's doing with his current supporting cast.

Manning plays at least half his games every year in a dome; Brady plays his outside in frickin' New England. And another in wintry Buffalo. And another in rainy Miami. And another in the Meadowlands wind tunnel

um you do realize that Brady has not yet played in any form of inclimate conditions thus far right, while Manning has played in a rain soaked games in San Diego and Jacksonville? And Brady has struggled in the past (relative to his usual standards) while playing in the rain/snow at Gillette/Ralph Wilson etc etc etc.

Manning and his one SB don't hold up to Brady's 3

again with the Rings....well by that logic, Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Brad Johnson, Doug Williams and all those other superbowl winning QBs are better than Dan Marino.

the debate will never be over. Not as long as intelligent people continue to follow the game and appreciate its competitive nature.

[ruggerx]

I love how you guys isolate each stat and attack it in unrelated ways. In their ENTIRETY, Brady's stats, including team success, outweigh Manning's - it's not even debatable. Prior to this year, Manning had every offensive advantage given to him, and Brady STILL accomplished more, other than ringing up huge personal stats (which the Pats obviously didn't need to win). This year, Brady has a comparable supporting cast, and he puts up bigger numbers than Manning did, but that's still not good enough. Manning loses a piece or two of the puzzle, and suddenly looks human, but that's meaningless to you too.

Here's a quick run-through of counterpoints:
What does it matter where the Colts got their players? The point is that Peyton accomplished less with more than Brady.

How can you say "guaranteed" Brady would struggle with Manning's current team? Brady had fewer weapons when he won 3 SBs than Manning had today. All we know for sure is that Manning is struggling with his current team.

Who's talking about the conditions Brady/Mannng played in this year? What conditions have they played in throughout their careers?

Championships will always be PART of the equation when evaluating QBs. They are the single player with the greatest ability to consistently influence the outcome of a game. Show me one QB who's won 3 championships that's not in the Hall of Fame. Go back as far as you need to- you won't find one.

It's amazing that you don't have one valid criticism of Brady, yet you want to argue that Manning's better. He wins with less, he wins with more; he puts up good numbers with less, he puts up great numbers with more; he wins with Weis as his OC, he wins with whoever is his OC now; he wins inside, he wins outside; he wins in good weather, he wins in bad weather. There's really no argument, but it;s funny that guys are so jealous of the Pats' success that they can't accept the truth.

[dallasstars06]

I love how you guys isolate each stat and attack it in unrelated ways. In their ENTIRETY, Brady's stats, including team success, outweigh Manning's - it's not even debatable. Prior to this year, Manning had every offensive advantage given to him, and Brady STILL accomplished more, other than ringing up huge personal stats (which the Pats obviously didn't need to win). This year, Brady has a comparable supporting cast, and he puts up bigger numbers than Manning did, but that's still not good enough. Manning loses a piece or two of the puzzle, and suddenly looks human, but that's meaningless to you too.

Here's a quick run-through of counterpoints:
What does it matter where the Colts got their players? The point is that Peyton accomplished less with more than Brady.

How can you say "guaranteed" Brady would struggle with Manning's current team? Brady had fewer weapons when he won 3 SBs than Manning had today. All we know for sure is that Manning is struggling with his current team.

Who's talking about the conditions Brady/Mannng played in this year? What conditions have they played in throughout their careers?

Championships will always be PART of the equation when evaluating QBs. They are the single player with the greatest ability to consistently influence the outcome of a game. Show me one QB who's won 3 championships that's not in the Hall of Fame. Go back as far as you need to- you won't find one.

It's amazing that you don't have one valid criticism of Brady, yet you want to argue that Manning's better. He wins with less, he wins with more; he puts up good numbers with less, he puts up great numbers with more; he wins with Weis as his OC, he wins with whoever is his OC now; he wins inside, he wins outside; he wins in good weather, he wins in bad weather. There's really no argument, but it;s funny that guys are so jealous of the Pats' success that they can't accept the truth.

completely brilliant. :)

Seriously, dude, give it up with the Brady bashing. You're turning into a damn fool. However, I question how far of a leap that was for you

[JerseyDevil]

Tom Brady has done more with less his whole career. This year the Patriots get some weapons and we see Brady's true abilities. No matter how much you bash the guy or say how much better Manning is than Brady, you can't argue the facts. Tom Brady is the best QB of the 2000's hands down.

[JerseyDevil]

I love how you guys isolate each stat and attack it in unrelated ways. In their ENTIRETY, Brady's stats, including team success, outweigh Manning's - it's not even debatable. Prior to this year, Manning had every offensive advantage given to him, and Brady STILL accomplished more, other than ringing up huge personal stats (which the Pats obviously didn't need to win). This year, Brady has a comparable supporting cast, and he puts up bigger numbers than Manning did, but that's still not good enough. Manning loses a piece or two of the puzzle, and suddenly looks human, but that's meaningless to you too.

Here's a quick run-through of counterpoints:
What does it matter where the Colts got their players? The point is that Peyton accomplished less with more than Brady.

How can you say "guaranteed" Brady would struggle with Manning's current team? Brady had fewer weapons when he won 3 SBs than Manning had today. All we know for sure is that Manning is struggling with his current team.

Who's talking about the conditions Brady/Mannng played in this year? What conditions have they played in throughout their careers?

Championships will always be PART of the equation when evaluating QBs. They are the single player with the greatest ability to consistently influence the outcome of a game. Show me one QB who's won 3 championships that's not in the Hall of Fame. Go back as far as you need to- you won't find one.

It's amazing that you don't have one valid criticism of Brady, yet you want to argue that Manning's better. He wins with less, he wins with more; he puts up good numbers with less, he puts up great numbers with more; he wins with Weis as his OC, he wins with whoever is his OC now; he wins inside, he wins outside; he wins in good weather, he wins in bad weather. There's really no argument, but it;s funny that guys are so jealous of the Pats' success that they can't accept the truth.

This has to be one of the best posts in the Brady/Manning debate ever.

[rsoaker23]

Brady doesn't have to make great throws for Moss to come down with it and Manning pretty much always did. Peyton has never had an o-line like the Pats

Never had an OLINE like the pats..Why do idiots make this argument??

Facts since 2001:

SACKS:

Tom Brady-192

Peyton Manning-124

And also..Indy had a probowl running back...the EDGE..who's in Arizona not having the big 20+ runs like he did in Indy...For you kids out there getting the 20+ yard runs result when your OLINE opens up a hole to get you past the big nasty defensive lineman....Boy i sure wuold like to see the Pats have an OLine like Indy:rolleyes:

[oldskool]

I love how you guys isolate each stat and attack it in unrelated ways. In their ENTIRETY, Brady's stats, including team success, outweigh Manning's - it's not even debatable. Prior to this year, Manning had every offensive advantage given to him, and Brady STILL accomplished more, other than ringing up huge personal stats (which the Pats obviously didn't need to win). This year, Brady has a comparable supporting cast, and he puts up bigger numbers than Manning did, but that's still not good enough. Manning loses a piece or two of the puzzle, and suddenly looks human, but that's meaningless to you too.

Here's a quick run-through of counterpoints:
What does it matter where the Colts got their players? The point is that Peyton accomplished less with more than Brady.

How can you say "guaranteed" Brady would struggle with Manning's current team? Brady had fewer weapons when he won 3 SBs than Manning had today. All we know for sure is that Manning is struggling with his current team.

Who's talking about the conditions Brady/Mannng played in this year? What conditions have they played in throughout their careers?

Championships will always be PART of the equation when evaluating QBs. They are the single player with the greatest ability to consistently influence the outcome of a game. Show me one QB who's won 3 championships that's not in the Hall of Fame. Go back as far as you need to- you won't find one.

It's amazing that you don't have one valid criticism of Brady, yet you want to argue that Manning's better. He wins with less, he wins with more; he puts up good numbers with less, he puts up great numbers with more; he wins with Weis as his OC, he wins with whoever is his OC now; he wins inside, he wins outside; he wins in good weather, he wins in bad weather. There's really no argument, but it;s funny that guys are so jealous of the Pats' success that they can't accept the truth.

You guys seem to forget that football is played on both sides of the ball. And last I checked, the Patriots always had a better defense when they won those rings. Last year, the Colts had the better defense(in the playoffs at least) and what happened? Colts won. The argument that Brady has done so much with no talent around him is pretty ingnorant. He's consistently had one of the best defenses in the league for the past 7-8 years. Not to mention one of the best defensive gameplanners if not the best off all time in Bellicheck. Those factors played as much of a role in the Patriots Super Bowls as Brady did.

[fastlane22]

"...what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

:D Go Steelers

Classic Billy Madison scene!