OT - So What Is Your Opinion

[Ronzie]

Not a thread to bash the USA.
I think this is a good discussion.


Here's the short & sweet version. I'm leaving out the type of business he runs as I want only opinions based on info I give.

-A Canadian man owns his own legal business.
-Store front & internet sales
-Pays all taxes on sales ($500,000 in taxes between 1999 to 2005)

He ships this product worldwide. One country (USA) doesn't like it, as the product is illegal there. This product has never caused one death.
Two US government agencies want to extradite him to the US and prosecute him. They want him to serve 10 to life.
At the same time US magazines run full page ads for this product available from various companies from different countries.

If Canadians have broken the law in Canada, they should be given a fair jury trial in Canada. If they won't face any severe imprisonment in Canada for the charges laid, they should not be extradited to another country to face possible life imprisonment.


Should the Canadian government give up this man to the US?
If so, wouldn't the Canadian government kinda make themselves an assessery to this crime? They took tax money on the product sold to the US.

[ChargerChris]

The US should leave him alone. It's not like he's smuggling the product into the country. If the product is okay worldwide then he should be fine.

[DaleMURPHYwouldBEaNICEfig]

I'm gonna guess what the product is as it sounds much better then discussing this crook.

My guess is. . . a pill or panty of the month

[Team Rocket]

The US should leave him alone. It's not like he's smuggling the product into the country. If the product is okay worldwide then he should be fine.

But the product is not okay in the US. And he knowingly ships to the US, and thus, should know US law, which he is breaking, and thus, due to arrangements between countries, should be extradicted to face criminal charges.

[biteyahard]

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. If it's illegal and he knew it was then he has to pay the penalty. Who cares if it's legal in other countries? Can he decide not to ship it to the US because it is illegal there? Yes, but he chose to ship to a country that it is not legal and he did it for a reason, profit. If he profits from illegal activities he should be penalized, just like anyone else. ;)

[Hornz Over Halos]

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. If it's illegal and he knew it was then he has to pay the penalty. Who cares if it's legal in other countries? Can he decide not to ship it to the US because it is illegal there? Yes, but he chose to ship to a country that it is not legal and he did it for a reason, profit. If he profits from illegal activities he should be penalized, just like anyone else. ;)



Yah, but sleeping with teenage Phillipino boys is illegal here in the US but we don't send our agencies into the Phillipines or Brazil or wherever to extradite those people.

I say leave the guy alone. If Canada doesn't deem it illegal and that's the country he lives in, then we (the US) need to quit poking our noses around.

[Wardo30]

if he is shipping an illegal product into the the US then yes he should be extradited and face charges....he knows its illegal in the US and continues to sell and ship there...

[Bryan316]

But then you can claim that the people buying the product in the US are knowingly committing a crime by buying it and having it shipped here. And the other countries that also ship said product here are criminals. How about we run them down, too. And surely this guy isn't the only one making/selling this. Let's spend countless hours and millions of dollars to flush them out. Surely everyone would cooperate with the World Police Force that we are, right?

[Hornz Over Halos]

But then you can claim that the people buying the product in the US are knowingly committing a crime by buying it and having it shipped here. And the other countries that also ship said product here are criminals. How about we run them down, too. And surely this guy isn't the only one making/selling this. Let's spend countless hours and millions of dollars to flush them out. Surely everyone would cooperate with the World Police Force that we are, right?



Exactly ... besides, what about all the illegal stuff being sold all over the world on ebay?

Counterfeit stuff, illegal copies of movies and music, bootleg clothes, etc.

This is all piddly stuff, I know, but just saying.

[Wardo30]

hunt them all down....we have nothign better to do...you know like wasting time in congress and senate to investigate sports, steroids, and videotaping...

[Ronzie]

Exactly ... besides, what about all the illegal stuff being sold all over the world on ebay?

Counterfeit stuff, illegal copies of movies and music, bootleg clothes, etc.

This is all piddly stuff, I know, but just saying.

Oh oh. Then I might get into trouble for buying 2 NHL knockoff jersey's from China.
I could've bought them here for $430 but decided to get them off Ebay for $76.

The product he was selling was seeds. Life in prison for selling seeds? Yet here in Canada you can have 1,000,000 seeds without a problem. In the US, one seed could land you in jail. Why, because the US government considers a seed in it's finished form.

[Wardo30]

were they weed seeds???

[Ronzie]

were they weed seeds???

Yep. Life for a natural product from mother nature that has killed 0 people in over 8,000 years.

[brewer fan]

I don't believe it is illegal to possess seeds here in the US. Its not until you actually plant them in the ground that they become illegal. I remember Woody Harrelson being arrested for putting them in the ground at a protest he was at. Maybe that law has changed though.

[Wardo30]

Yep. Life for a natural product from mother nature that has killed 0 people in over 8,000 years.

okay then I don't agree on extraditing for such a minor thing

[Team Rocket]

Yah, but sleeping with teenage Phillipino boys is illegal here in the US but we don't send our agencies into the Phillipines or Brazil or wherever to extradite those people.

I say leave the guy alone. If Canada doesn't deem it illegal and that's the country he lives in, then we (the US) need to quit poking our noses around.

Because they aren't breaking us law. If you were sleeping with teenage phillipino boys in the US, then that'd be a different story.

[RipkenFan8]

Yep. Life for a natural product from mother nature that has killed 0 people in over 8,000 years.


The US needs to LEGALIZE

[Team Rocket]

Yep. Life for a natural product from mother nature that has killed 0 people in over 8,000 years.

So noone has ever been in a car accident because they were high on marijuana? Never shot someone while high?

[raltherr]

He knew it was illegal to ship to the USA and he did it anyway. He knowingly broke the law. So I feel no pity for him. It doesn't matter how many people the product has, or hasn't killed. It's still illegal. He knew better.

[PrimeBane]

I think this guy probably shouldn't vacation in the US.

At the same time, I hope the Canadian gov't tells the US officials to go fly a kite.

[Chevy Man 22]

I say as long as he stays in Canada leave him be but the second he steps foot on U.S. soil for any reason whatsoever he's fair game.

[chaserfan]

If the product is illegal in the states, and he knew full well that it was and what the punishment for it is, that makes him practicing an illegal import and trade and can be punished. I dont know what the government involvement would entangle but I would guess if they allowed it knowingly they were in the wrong also. its hard when you dont know what the product is and why it is illegal

[Mark Weber]

So noone has ever been in a car accident because they were high on marijuana? Never shot someone while high?

Amen.

[ewto16]

Which is the illegal part? The buying or the selling? It seems to be that they should then go after the people that bought the seeds then as well.

[chaserfan]

ahh. guess I should have read everything. well if its seeds which I think it is illegal to have even one here, than he might be screwed. personally, and I dont smoke it....anymore...the US has a problem with weed do to politics. when I was a medic, I never had one ems call where weed was the root of the problem unless it was a fight for it or something, but no medical problems. on the other hand, liquor is legal and there wasnt a week that went by that I didnt have to deal with drunks. someday I'm guessing it might change being the tobacco industry is already set to go if it ever becomes legal.

anyway, I digress...I think doing it through the mail and probably the quantity will get him some time

[amador_o]

I think he should have a warrant for illegal distibution, but exraditing is too extreme. I agree with a post earlier that says if he crosses the border, and is caught, fine. The war on drugs is a joke anyways. It's already been lost.

[brewer fan]

So noone has ever been in a car accident because they were high on marijuana? Never shot someone while high?

Not on seeds. He is not selling marijuana itself just the seeds. Same goes for a head shop it is legal to sell a pipe as long as it states for tobacco use only. But really who buys a 3 foot bong for tobacco?

[Team Rocket]

Not on seeds. He is not selling marijuana itself just the seeds. Same goes for a head shop it is legal to sell a pipe as long as it states for tobacco use only. But really who buys a 3 foot bong for tobacco?

Ah yes I see, the people who buy the seeds must plan on watching them, as opposed to planting them.

[ToightLikeATiger]

He should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. He is selling an illegal item and shipping them to the US. That is against the law and he should be punished. He is no different then the guy selling on the street corner. Just because he is in another country and behind a PC doesnt make him immune to punishment.

Its illegal in the US....he sells and ships it to the US. I dont see where there is any question whether he should be prosecuted or not.

[rafprop]

Why is the poll closed?

The guy should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[Hardcore Legend]

It's interesting that people didn't pick up on what this guy was talking about based upon his avatar.

[rafprop]

Which is the illegal part? The buying or the selling? It seems to be that they should then go after the people that bought the seeds then as well.


Who saya that they don't? But it's much more cost effective to prosecute the source than to track down all the buyers.

[freezowave1978]

So noone has ever been in a car accident because they were high on marijuana? Never shot someone while high?

So no one has been in a car crash or killed someone while stone-cold sober?????? Or while on the phone? Or distracted by a child? Or because they couldn't control their anger?

People need to stop blaming a substance and blame the individual instead. Stoned or sober you are still the one ultimately responsible for the decisions you make.

On a tangent the war on drugs is an epic failure that continues to cost tax payer billions and billions of dollars.

[freezowave1978]

It is a plant. It requires no post growth processing to extract a drug. I can grow poppies. I can grow poisonous plants, but I cannot grow this one plant. The laws on the books are ridiculous and condescending to anyone who can think independently.

How much money has it cost us taxpayers to try and prosecute this person? Every dollar of it has been wasted.

[freezowave1978]

To continue, we have occupied Afghanistan since 2001 and the opium exports from the region have grown more in this period than any other time in modern history. However, a guy selling seeds to hobbyists is worthy of this allocation of resources?!?!?! Crazy.

Digressing further big pharm can keep millions addicted to opiates, xanax, adderall, oxycontin etc with no worries at all. All they do is tell pharmacies to cut addicts off- effectively pushing them into the streets for street-level narcotics instead. It's not there fault though, it's that of the hoods on the corners. Forget that most corners are already filled with liquor stores or drug stores.

[Ronzie]

So noone has ever been in a car accident because they were high on marijuana? Never shot someone while high?

I would say for sure, just like alcohol.
I mean directly from the product. You can't OD on thc.

I didn't want this thread to turn into a smoking pot thread, that's why I didn't mention it at the beginning. Just the possible extradition.


"Health Canada, when it first began licensing medical marijuana users, recommended to Members of Parliament and licensed users that new cannabis growers should purchase seeds online from Canadian seed sellers such as Marc Emery Direct".

Vancouver police arrested him "at the request of the DEA".
He's never been charged by Canadian law enforcement and was quickly granted $50,000 bail and can travel freely within Canada.

[biteyahard]

Yah, but sleeping with teenage Phillipino boys is illegal here in the US but we don't send our agencies into the Phillipines or Brazil or wherever to extradite those people.

I say leave the guy alone. If Canada doesn't deem it illegal and that's the country he lives in, then we (the US) need to quit poking our noses around.

What you do with your "boys" on your own time has nothing to do with this.:o:p;)

OK, so if Gunther in Amsterdam wants to ship his "goodies" that are legal there, to the US, where it is obviously not legal is cool? (Borat says.......NOT):rolleyes:

Apparently you know little about legal and illegal import/export if you think it's OK.

Think about it this way............You buy some toy online for Hornz Over Halos Jr, later to find out that it is illegal for import because of it's extremely high lead content. You're not gonna hold the people who made it, sold it, and shipped it here responsible!?!? Nah, leave those guys alone they're just trying to make a buck by shipping stuff they know is illegal here.:rolleyes:

[biteyahard]

Yep. Life for a natural product from mother nature that has killed 0 people in over 8,000 years.

If you believe that you are as purely ignorrant as they get.

[Bryan316]

Think about it this way............You buy some toy online for Hornz Over Halos Jr, later to find out that it is illegal for import because of it's extremely high lead content. You're not gonna hold the people who made it, sold it, and shipped it here responsible!?!? Nah, leave those guys alone they're just trying to make a buck by shipping stuff they know is illegal here.:rolleyes:
That's not an equitable comparison at all. The people that ordered these seeds knew what they were getting. They ordered weed seeds specifically, not sunflower seeds or pansy seeds and wound up getting weed seeds or diseased sunflower seeds. Those that ordered the weed seeds knew exactly what they were ordering at that it would be of questionable legality. This wasn't some "whoops, weed seeds are illegal here?" thing.

[biteyahard]

That's not an equitable comparison at all. The people that ordered these seeds knew what they were getting. They ordered weed seeds specifically, not sunflower seeds or pansy seeds and wound up getting weed seeds or diseased sunflower seeds. Those that ordered the weed seeds knew exactly what they were ordering at that it would be of questionable legality. This wasn't some "whoops, weed seeds are illegal here?" thing.


Yes that is true, but if they got weed seeds laced or engineered with something they didn't "expect" they might think differently. I have no more respect for the buyers than the sellers anyway in this case. If it's illegal in the US, go to where it's legal and smoke your brains out if you want.;)

[Therman Merman]

It's interesting that people didn't pick up on what this guy was talking about based upon his avatar.I had the exact same thought. Great show. I love the...ahem...subject matter. ;)

[brewer fan]

If you believe that you are as purely ignorrant as they get.

I believe what he was trying to say no one has ever had a death caused by an overdose of weed. So technically it has never caused a death.

Plus I did some checking and at least in Wisconsin it is not illegal to have seeds on your person as long as hey are not planted into the ground. This is due to the fact that there is zero THC in seeds, which is the illegal substance.

[biteyahard]

I believe what he was trying to say no one has ever had a death caused by an overdose of weed. So technically it has never caused a death.

Well, if he WAS trying to say that, he should have said that. He'd be wrong saying that anyway. Do you know that people have died from overdosing on water? I'd have to assume that more than one person in 8000 years has smoked his freakin head off, so either way it's ignorrant. I'm not saying that weed is the "Devil" or that it's as blatantly destructive as say, meth. I'm also not as naive to think that weed doesn't have any negative effects. It is a gateway drug like it or not, it's true. It also causes many negative mental and physical problems. I did my fair share as a dumbass kid and I have some middle aged stoner buddies that aren't worth the dirty t-shirts they wear. :o

To say it's harmless is moronic, I'll not say another thing about this topic. I made my first two posts without reading what the "product" was and I stand by what I said then, and knowing that is was weed seeds only confirms my opinion.;)

[avsfan21]

Throw the book at him. He knowingly shipped illegal drugs across the border. If he is doing international shipping, it is his responsibility to know the laws of the places he ships to.

[brewer fan]

Well, if he WAS trying to say that, he should have said that. He'd be wrong saying that anyway. Do you know that people have died from overdosing on water? I'd have to assume that more than one person in 8000 years has smoked his freakin head off, so either way it's ignorrant. I'm not saying that weed is the "Devil" or that it's as blatantly destructive as say, meth. I'm also not as naive to think that weed doesn't have any negative effects. It is a gateway drug like it or not, it's true. It also causes many negative mental and physical problems. I did my fair share as a dumbass kid and I have some middle aged stoner buddies that aren't worth the dirty t-shirts they wear. :o

To say it's harmless is moronic, I'll not say another thing about this topic. I made my first two posts without reading what the "product" was and I stand by what I said then, and knowing that is was weed seeds only confirms my opinion.;)

Show me one case of someone overdosing on THC.

Pot is a gateway drug for anyone who has an addictive personality. You want to talk about a gateway drug go down to your liquor store and there is all kinds of it there. I think some of you people would be very surprised at what type of people smoke recreationally. It is not the typical stoner its your business owners, lawyers, doctors etc. Someone can smoke all night and have no effects the next day but try that with beer and I am sure you will still be drunk the next morning (or hanging). As you can see my opinion is alcohol is much more of a demon than pot. I have seen alcoholism destroy peoples lives and not once seen marijuana do that. But again this is my opinion and I respect yours.

[Therman Merman]

According to the National Institute of Drug Abuse, however, there are no deaths that can be unequivocally attributed to marijuana use. And unlike alcohol use, a frequent factor like child abuse, marijuana does not predispose its users to violence" (War on Drugs 25).An exhaustive search of the literature finds no credible reports of deaths induced by marijuana. The US Drug Abuse Warning Network (DAWN) records instances of drug mentions in medical examiners' reports, and though marijuana is mentioned, it is usually in combination with alcohol or other drugs. Marijuana alone has not been shown to cause an overdose death...

[Point65]

At what point is this NOT considered drug trafficking? I thought you really wanted to talk about a respected, legal business involving the U.S.

The only way this could've even remotely been considered a legitimate problem for the guy was if he was selling this stuff to pharmaceudical companies for controlled, medicinal purposes. It doesn't make him anything closer to pious or legitimate because he pays taxes on its export to the U.S. Why then, do you suppose the Columbians don't bother to pay the taxes to the U.S. (I'd have to look it up, but I don't think we have an extradition deal with them)? They just wouldn't want to get caught.

[Ronzie]

He quit selling seeds to the US as soon as he was arrested.
Other seed companies since have either advertised they won't ship to the states or have ignored the warning. No other seed seller has been busted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Marc Emery paid Income Tax to Revenue Canada and Revenue BC on all of his income generated from his seed business. He paid more than $500,000 in taxes between 1999 to 2005, and put his occupation on the income tax declarations as "marijuana seed vendor".

- Marc Emery's magazine "Cannabis Culture" was sent to every Member of Parliament for over 12 years, and still is today. Every issue of Cannabis Culture up to #57 (the issue printed on the very same day as the raid, July 29th, 2005) included the entire seed catalogue in it, so Parliament knew about the business.

- Health Canada, when it first began licensing medical marijuana users, recommended to Members of Parliament and licensed users that new cannabis growers should purchase seeds online from Canadian seed sellers such as Marc Emery Direct.

- Marc Emery brought a capitalist approach to the marijuana legalization movement by starting "radical retail" outlets such as Hemp BC, and got politically involved be helping organize the Canadian Marijuana Party and creating the BC Marijuana Party, the latter which he still leads today.

- Marc Emery created his seed business with the purpose of using the profits to fund the cannabis movement worldwide. Through the sale of cannabis seeds, Marc was able to finance numerous drug law reform groups and events around the world, mostly in Canada and the United States. He funded global rally/march promotion, American and Canadian ballot initiatives, election campaigns, lobbying groups, conferences, drug rehab clinics, class action lawsuits, protests, patient bills and bail fees, and more. In total, over $4,000,000 was contributed to various activities and organizations.


Here's a quote which is totally knowly false from the DEA on the bust.

Statement from DEA Administrator Karen P. Tandy
Major North American Marijuana Trafficker Self-Proclaimed “Prince of Pot”
aka Marc Scott Emery Arrested Today

“Today’s DEA arrest of Marc Scott Emery, publisher of Cannabis Culture Magazine, and the founder of a marijuana legalization group- is a significant blow not only to the marijuana trafficking trade in the U.S. and Canada, but also to the marijuana legalization movement.

His marijuana trade and propagandist marijuana magazine have generated nearly $5 million a year in profits that bolstered his trafficking efforts, but those have gone up in smoke today.”

Emery and his organization had been designated as one of the Attorney General’s most wanted international drug trafficking organizational targets – one of only 46 in the world and the only one from Canada.”

“Hundreds of thousands of dollars of Emery’s illicit profits are known to have been channeled to marijuana legalization groups active in the United States and Canada. Drug legalization lobbyists now have one less pot of money to rely on.

[amador_o]

At what point is this NOT considered drug trafficking? I thought you really wanted to talk about a respected, legal business involving the U.S.

It could be argued that it is not drug trafficking because the substance in question, THC, is not present in the product shipped.

[Ronzie]

At what point is this NOT considered drug trafficking? I thought you really wanted to talk about a respected, legal business involving the U.S.

The only way this could've even remotely been considered a legitimate problem for the guy was if he was selling this stuff to pharmaceudical companies for controlled, medicinal purposes. It doesn't make him anything closer to pious or legitimate because he pays taxes on its export to the U.S. Why then, do you suppose the Columbians don't bother to pay the taxes to the U.S. (I'd have to look it up, but I don't think we have an extradition deal with them)? They just wouldn't want to get caught.

The USA is the only country that treats seeds as a finished product.
Columbians deal in finished product and it's mostly cocaine.
Pharmaceudical companies even though admittedly see major benefits with marijuana, won't touch it. You can't patent it because it's an all natural product. Which means no profit. Shows like 60 minutes and The Natural have covered this.

Prohibition does not work. Government control does. Look at the alcohol prohibition from 1920-1933. Now look at government control. The DEA since it's beginning has spent over a trillion dollars. A good chunck of that was towards marijuana.
If marijuana was legalized and had the same government control as alcohol.

a) it would take the illegal element out of it (dealers, gangs and age)
b) tax money

[freezowave1978]

The USA is the only country that treats seeds as a finished product.
Columbians deal in finished product and it's mostly cocaine.
Pharmaceudical companies even though admittedly see major benefits with marijuana, won't touch it. You can't patent it because it's an all natural product. Which means no profit. Shows like 60 minutes and The Natural have covered this.

Prohibition does not work. Government control does. Look at the alcohol prohibition from 1920-1933. Now look at government control. The DEA since it's beginning has spent over a trillion dollars. A good chunck of that was towards marijuana.
If marijuana was legalized and had the same government control as alcohol.

a) it would take the illegal element out of it (dealers, gangs and age)
b) tax money

Cannot agree more. The US drug policy has, and continues to, cost Americans an insane amount of resources. On top of it addicts are treated as criminals with no concern ever being placed on rehabilitation and psychological care.

Add to this the hypocrisy of treating minor to moderate pain with powerful and addictive narcotics and you have a mess. Right now many areas are seeing illegal drug deaths outnumbered by prescription drug deaths. Further fanning the flames is that a number of illegal/street drug users (and those who have died of illegal drug od's) have been pushed to this point because of easier attainability and lower cost than the prescription drugs that kicked off the addiction.

I do not see how moderating extremely powerful narcotics in lieu of considering less socially damaging alternatives makes any real sense.

I'm not calling for the floodgates to open, but I think a far more pragmatic approach is needed. I think our stance on drugs is archaic and treats the symptoms rather than the disease.

[freezowave1978]

Do you know that people have died from overdosing on water?

A lot more than you'd think. Hazing has caused several water OD's, as well as parents giving young children too much.


Nothing is safe when taken to an extreme. I think what people have said is that the extremes for OD'ing on reefer is physically impossible to reach. You are more likely do have an asthmatic reaction or a heart attack before OD'ing.