OT: Legal Question......

[slinger256]

Last spring, I had a company do some landscaping work. I was quoted a price of roughly $60. Months later after requesting an invoice numerous times, I finally received one for $162. Back and forth with the guy about it and exactly what they did, I sent him a payment of $75 and let him know that would be more than suffice for my $60 worth of work and next time dont start a job if its not going to be what was quoted. So Jan 31 I receive a letter with the 21 days to pay up the rest of he was going to take me to small claims court. So at this point I dont have a leg to stand on, I have nothing that will hold up against him so figure I have to pay.

So Feb 18 he has a delivery notice left at his door in the form of a registered letter with the payment. Check the tracking number and he still has not gone to pick it up. The MO is in the system addressed to his company, and a registered mailing that had a attempted delivery within his 21 day deadline.

If he doesnt pick this up, where do I sit?

[headshoes]

You should get the MO returned to you before your court date.. Bring postage receipt with you to court.
It will show that in good faith you attempted to resolve this matter.

[slinger256]

You should get the MO returned to you before your court date.. Bring postage receipt with you to court.
It will show that in good faith you attempted to resolve this matter.


Id love to just hand the judge a sealed envelope and with the tracking info and have him open it. Oh look, the money you had requested.

[UFCFan]

Why did you not get a written quote on paper from him before agreeing to move forward with having him do the work? It amazes me how many people rely on the honor system in this day and age where seemingly everyone is looking to get over on others.

[slinger256]

Why did you not get a written quote on paper from him before agreeing to move forward with having him do the work? It amazes me how many people rely on the honor system in this day and age where seemingly everyone is looking to get over on others.

Yup, why didnt I? Local businessman who takes care of numerous houses on my street and recommended by them, and it was some pretty basic work. I guess I have too much faith in people. Must be the way I do trustworthy business in my job.

[UFCFan]

I hear ya man. I just feel bad for you, and I get really irked when people take advantage of the trust of others. It really sucks that anyone would need to get paperwork for something so seemingly innocuous, but unfortunately, that's what it has come to in society.

[madcracker]

That sort of thing wouldn't fly in a small town. I'm glad I'm not in the city. Rough luck man. Hope you don't have to pay in the end.

[Xar]

I learned this lesson as well this last year.........ALWAYS get a written quote.

I had my front yard re-done this past year. I re-did the whole thing, built the frame for the new sidewalk, laid the new sod, everything.

However, I was going to build a stone walkway rather than a cement one. So I got a company to deliver the rock I wanted, and they offered to put the rock into the front walkway for me and put the rest at the front of my driveway.

Well, I figured out I needed roughly 5 cubic yards of the rock to do everything I needed, so I told them that, and they quoted me $100 per cubic yard of rock. When I asked how much they would be charging me for installing it and all that, I KNOW they said "Oh, thats included in the $100".

However, I didnt get a written quote.......

So I got the bill when everything was done (which took 2 weeks longer than it should have.....) and it was for just over $1000.......

$650 for the rock...$320 for the labour (2 people for 4 hours at $40 per hour).....$120 for the skidder......

needless to say I was NOT impressed with this as I was quoted WAY lower...........however, I had to pay the bill cause the work was done and there wasnt much I could fight it with.....

I learned next time I get any work done, get a written quote. Had I known they would charge $40 per hour for a girl to lay the rock, I would have done it myself.........

[Xar]

On the positive side........the new walkway looks AWESOME!!!!!! I can hardly wait till the snow melts so I can enjoy it :D

[slinger256]

Karma will nip these guys Cal.

At the end of the day I have no defense against paying it, that I know.

I've done my due diligence in regards to settling up. I have everything in a computer system and it is trackable. I dont trust the system enough to see myself being protected.

[Xar]

As for Small Claims Court........truthfully its nothing to be scared of.

What the other guy will have to do is fill out forms and provide evidence that you owe him money. Then you will receive a letter from him and his lawyer about the situation, at which point you will have to file paperwork as well stating your side of things and evidence.

Once the court has received all of this, it will set a court date. However, the first court date is just simply a hearing, and the judge there simply just hears the situation from both sides, but doesnt make a determination. What he hopes to do is get the two sides talking towards a resolution. As long as you both show up, most cases the problem gets solved right there between the two groups. Basically one of three things can happen......either the judge that hears the problems just throws the case out, the two sides agree to a comprimise, or you could go through the actual court proceedings. Obviously, if he hasnt received the money by this point, the solution would be you writing a check to him right there and paying the money........and then it will be done away with.

Hope that makes sense.

[91_dnulasN]

When you get the letter back, DO NOT OPEN it, if he pushes for it, go to court, give the judge the letter sealed and dated, Explain you sent him the money. You;ll have to pay him but it should be enough to show you tried to pay him and SHOULD keep you off the hook for any legal court fees.

[Fitz13]

As for Small Claims Court........truthfully its nothing to be scared of.

What the other guy will have to do is fill out forms and provide evidence that you owe him money. Then you will receive a letter from him and his lawyer about the situation, at which point you will have to file paperwork as well stating your side of things and evidence.

Once the court has received all of this, it will set a court date. However, the first court date is just simply a hearing, and the judge there simply just hears the situation from both sides, but doesnt make a determination. What he hopes to do is get the two sides talking towards a resolution. As long as you both show up, most cases the problem gets solved right there between the two groups. Basically one of three things can happen......either the judge that hears the problems just throws the case out, the two sides agree to a comprimise, or you could go through the actual court proceedings. Obviously, if he hasnt received the money by this point, the solution would be you writing a check to him right there and paying the money........and then it will be done away with.


Hope that makes sense.

BINGO! Where is the quote he gave you that he can stand on? I would have NEVER paid him more than the $60. Like above, this would go to mediation before a Judge ever got involved and then it is on HIM to prove you owe the money not on you to say you don't. As the business providing the service, it is on him to show proof of a quote. Go get that letter back and walk away from him. You let him intimidate you. Best of luck.

[petenfld]

As for Small Claims Court........truthfully its nothing to be scared of.

What the other guy will have to do is fill out forms and provide evidence that you owe him money. Then you will receive a letter from him and his lawyer about the situation, at which point you will have to file paperwork as well stating your side of things and evidence.

Once the court has received all of this, it will set a court date. However, the first court date is just simply a hearing, and the judge there simply just hears the situation from both sides, but doesnt make a determination. What he hopes to do is get the two sides talking towards a resolution. As long as you both show up, most cases the problem gets solved right there between the two groups. Basically one of three things can happen......either the judge that hears the problems just throws the case out, the two sides agree to a comprimise, or you could go through the actual court proceedings. Obviously, if he hasnt received the money by this point, the solution would be you writing a check to him right there and paying the money........and then it will be done away with.

Hope that makes sense.


Totally agree, People use this threat to sue all the time with the fact being most of them are too stupid or lazy to fill out the paperwork

[slinger256]

BINGO! Where is the quote he gave you that he can stand on? I would have NEVER paid him more than the $60. Like above, this would go to mediation before a Judge ever got involved and then it is on HIM to prove you owe the money not on you to say you don't. As the business providing the service, it is on him to show proof of a quote. Go get that letter back and walk away from him. You let him intimidate you. Best of luck.

He said she said judge, who are you going to believe?? It was a verbal agreement. He said 60 ish, I ok'd the work. He can easily say otherwise and this would just become a slap fight.

My biggest issue was he made a poor business decision when he arrived on site and did the work without saying hey, you know what, this is gonna be more than I expected.

[91_dnulasN]

As an Aside, Having dealt with small companies before in my last job, a TON of small business' wont sign for any registered mail cause thats where their bill collectors send the stuff. I had to do DOT Background checks and small companies were the biggest pain in the ass to contact and get paperwork back on cause they just Wont receive Registered mail.

So in some way him not signing for it isnt a surprise.

Also, Since he did send you an Invoice and you DONT have a written estimate, he has more legal paperwork to stand on. Again, I would take the letter and keep it sealed, it should save you fees incase he does deside to be stupid enough to push it into the courts.

[slinger256]

As an Aside, Having dealt with small companies before in my last job, a TON of small business' wont sign for any registered mail cause thats where their bill collectors send the stuff. I had to do DOT Background checks and small companies were the biggest pain in the ass to contact and get paperwork back on cause they just Wont receive Registered mail.

So in some way him not signing for it isnt a surprise.

Also, Since he did send you an Invoice and you DONT have a written estimate, he has more legal paperwork to stand on. Again, I would take the letter and keep it sealed, it should save you fees incase he does deside to be stupid enough to push it into the courts.


Thats just it, he has more going for him on his end. I'm just hoping the judge sees the attempt was made, he'll have the sealed dated envelope in his hands. The effort was made, due dilligence was done, and the donkey decided not to pick up his mail.

If this guy decides to fire another registered letter my way I wonder if I should just not accept

[utgrad92]

I would think is filing fee and lawyer fees would be more than you owe...

[91_dnulasN]

I would think is filing fee and lawyer fees would be more than you owe...

But if he can prove you dodged the payment, he can ask that all court fees and (depending on the state I think) his Lawyer fees be covered. That said Small claims doesnt require a lawyer, just a small filing fee that you can ask to have the defendant pay if he's found to have avoided everything

Thats why the sealed dated letter with a dated check is huge, you cant forrage the date stamp on the letter, and by leaving it sealed there is Zero argument of fraud.

[TheCollectorStop]

His claim is erroneous. You really should speak with a lawyer and launch a counter suit against him. You can be hit with court costs and it can even affect your credit score. It's really nothing to play around with. Best advise though is to ask a lawyer and not people on a message board. They've had seven years of a rigorous education for a reason and no one here can give you the correct advice. The choice is yours, but an incorrect one can be at your own peril.

[slinger256]

After speaking with my better halfs uncle today who is a family lawyer, he advised to give the business man a call and let him know he should probably go pick up the registered mail or he's gonna look like a shmuck if this goes to court as I have done nothing wrong. Due dilligence was done on my behalf. He basically said the guy is an idiot for not picking up his mail.

[ryjay]

Last spring, I had a company do some landscaping work. I was quoted a price of roughly $60. Months later after requesting an invoice numerous times, I finally received one for $162. Back and forth with the guy about it and exactly what they did, I sent him a payment of $75 and let him know that would be more than suffice for my $60 worth of work and next time dont start a job if its not going to be what was quoted. So Jan 31 I receive a letter with the 21 days to pay up the rest of he was going to take me to small claims court. So at this point I dont have a leg to stand on, I have nothing that will hold up against him so figure I have to pay.

So Feb 18 he has a delivery notice left at his door in the form of a registered letter with the payment. Check the tracking number and he still has not gone to pick it up. The MO is in the system addressed to his company, and a registered mailing that had a attempted delivery within his 21 day deadline.

If he doesnt pick this up, where do I sit?
The simplest thing is to get the M/O back and then get the payment to him.

[ryjay]

After speaking with my better halfs uncle today who is a family lawyer, he advised to give the business man a call and let him know he should probably go pick up the registered mail or he's gonna look like a shmuck if this goes to court as I have done nothing wrong. Due dilligence was done on my behalf. He basically said the guy is an idiot for not picking up his mail.
The guy is not picking up the check because he'll add time, and other items, to the small claims suit which will be more then the $160 or so.

BTW, usually with things like this, a person will wait until the end of the year of sorts and file on many people all in one day to seek individual judgements.

[slinger256]

youve missed the point completely ryjay......gg

[madcracker]

I wouldn't tell him anything. You've got record that payment was sent and that he just hasn't bothered to pick it up. That's not your fault. Most it will cost you is time when you have to go to court. He obviously can't ask for legal fees on top of everything because you've already paid. You don't owe him the favour of saving him from looking like an idiot when it goes to court.

I'd phone him up and say, "Screw you buddy, I already paid." and leave it at that. Let him try and figure out what the hell you're talking about. Don't bend over for the guy because he owns a business.

[ryjay]

youve missed the point completely ryjay......gg
explain it to me. I understand, according to him, you owe him money & you are yet to get it to him, that is your responsibility

[slinger256]

explain it to me. I understand, according to him, you owe him money & you are yet to get it to him, that is your responsibility


I have taken the proper method to ensure he gets the money, with all documentation that would hold up in court, and he has chosen to not accept it. Like the lawyer said, I have done due dilligence on my part. Let him bring me to court.

[ryjay]

I have taken the proper method to ensure he gets the money, with all documentation that would hold up in court, and he has chosen to not accept it. Like the lawyer said, I have done due dilligence on my part. Let him bring me to court.
I dissagree with that lawyer. I'll be the other party..."your honor, I never received a notice on my door about the payment."

clearify one point, when you said "a delivery notice left at his door in the form of a registered letter with payment" Was just a notice left at his door, or was the payment left at his door?

[Fitz13]

He said she said judge, who are you going to believe?? It was a verbal agreement. He said 60 ish, I ok'd the work. He can easily say otherwise and this would just become a slap fight.

My biggest issue was he made a poor business decision when he arrived on site and did the work without saying hey, you know what, this is gonna be more than I expected.


Not a matter of who to beleive. He did not provide you a written estimate. What you paid is what you paid, end of story. He threatened you and you bought it because you were not aware of your legal rights. You were the winner had you pursued this.

By the way, I am an executive with the Superior Courts of NJ and see this all the time so this is not just some shcmo telling you an opinion. I am in court every day.

[slinger256]

Not a matter of who to beleive. He did not provide you a written estimate. What you paid is what you paid, end of story. He threatened you and you bought it because you were not aware of your legal rights. You were the winner had you pursued this.

By the way, I am an executive with the Superior Courts of NJ and see this all the time so this is not just some shcmo telling you an opinion. I am in court every day.

I am the winner had I pursued in court not paying the remaning balance? Im not sure I understand as I have no proof other than a verbal agreement of what he quoted me. Not much to stand on. Just pay it off, chalk it up as a lesson.

[slinger256]

I dissagree with that lawyer. I'll be the other party..."your honor, I never received a notice on my door about the payment."

clearify one point, when you said "a delivery notice left at his door in the form of a registered letter with payment" Was just a notice left at his door, or was the payment left at his door?

and your background for me to go with what you say over a lawyer is???

Delivery attempt was made to his residence/business of a registered letter. Either he, a: refused it, or b: was not home to accept this, so a notice was left with his other mail that he had a delivery waiting for him at the post office.

[ryjay]

and your background for me to go with what you say over a lawyer is???

Delivery attempt was made to his residence/business of a registered letter. Either he, a: refused it, or b: was not home to accept this, so a notice was left with his other mail that he had a delivery waiting for him at the post office.
Don't worry about my background...ever been in a courtroom? You will usually find two lawyers presenting different opinions. BTW, you found a guy who has a guy who said what you wanted to hear. I'm not saying if you do nothing else at this point you're in the wrong, but you're not making it easy, and as others have stated, call the guy & make the attempt to make sure he knows his money is there .

A quick tip...anytime you pay someone for work that you think was not just, by poor work or you felt taken advantage of in a quote...alway put the phrase..."paid under dispute" in the memo line of a check. That way you have a written record that you were not happy at the time payment had to be made without being delinquent on the payment.

Your registered mail gives you prove that you made good on the promise to pay within his terms without further delays, but the money has not reached the vendor, for reason you said, are not totally known. Have you done all you can do? It's like if you send a check for payment and it's lost in the mail, you still owe the bill and must send another payment, however, if you sent it registered mail you may, or may not, owe late or additional fees if they were to apply.

[Fitz13]

I am the winner had I pursued in court not paying the remaning balance? Im not sure I understand as I have no proof other than a verbal agreement of what he quoted me. Not much to stand on. Just pay it off, chalk it up as a lesson.


What you are missing is the evidence. It is on him to show that he gave you a quote with a set price. Since he did not and you in good faith paid what you said you had agreed on, that would be it. Civil and Criminal cases are all about who is responsible with the burden of proof. In this case the burden is on him to produce something showing what you were being billed. Any judge in Civil court would be with you. It is the law.

[dirtysox]

How about I get my bat and we rush this guy? :D